On stopping the Charleston
>From: Louise B
>Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 4:29 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>Although I’m pretty sure it’s not an official rule, I’ve been playing with a few groups in my development who say that after the first left pass, if they have a choice of two hands (6 tiles of one hand, 7 of another, say) that they should make a decision on which hand to play and NOT stop the Charleston instead of playing it safe by keeping both hands in tact. What are your feelings on this?
>Lou
Hi, Lou!
I'm not sure what you're questioning. Rules are one thing, and strategy is another.
Are you asking if it's an official rule that the Charleston must never be stopped if one has two hands?
Are you asking if it's an official rule that the Charleston must never be stopped if one has two hands that are nearly equal?
Are you asking if it's an official rule that if a player has two hands after the first left, that she must choose one (and not stop the Charleston) if she can't keep both options open?
It isn't.
It isn't.
It isn't.
Rules are one thing, and strategy is another. Any player is permitted to stop the dancing after the first Charleston (after the first left pass). That's the rule. I assume you know that. The player's decision whether or not to stop the Charleston is a matter of strategy, not rules.
Your reason for stopping the Charleston cannot be governed by rules anyway - there's no way the other players could know why you're stopping it unless you tell them. If one's reason for stopping the Charleston was a matter of rules, it would be an unenforceable rule, since there's no way for players to know what's going on in each other's heads.
All of which makes me wonder how you know that all these groups have these [rules?strategies?] in place. You aren't talking through your thought process while passing tiles in the Charleston, are you? "Hmm, should I stop the Charleston or not? Counting... okay, six tiles for that hand..." (and so on).
Or do you say you want to stop the Charleston, and then they ask you why? I mean, if you're just quietly doing the Charleston, how are people even bringing up their "strategy rules" about stopping the Charleston?
I can think of two reasons for "don't stop the Charleston" table rules: (1) to keep the game moving along quickly (because somebody takes too much time, slowing the Charleston down), and (2) the group has experienced somebody stopping the dance too often for their liking. Is either of those things happening?
For more of my "feelings" about stopping the Charleston, see column 494.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 28, 2017
Dead hand joker redemption, part 2 (Returning dead exposures, part 9)
>From: Susan D
>Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 7:09 AM
>Subject: Re Valid Joker Exchanges
>Yes, Tom. I think it would be very helpful if the comment about a dead concealed hand was edited. I have been playing less than two years and am trying to learn all that I can. I value your input. Thank you, Susan
Okay, Susan. I probably should have done that (revised FAQ 19P) after the discussion with Bee and Bonnie and Harriett concluded, back in January 2016. Guess I was too hung up on a strict interpretation of the wording of rule 3(b), which I believe is at odds with the League's intent.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 28, 2017
Dead hand joker redemption (Returning dead exposures, part 8)
>From: Susan D
>Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 3:39 PM
>Subject: Redeemable Jokers
>Tom: Lately there has been a lot of discussion on Mah Jongg Thats IT! concerning redeeming jokers from a dead concealed hand. I thought I had it straight, but am confused with your comment that once a CONCEALED hand has been declared dead ALL tiles should be returned to the rack. What about exposures that were made prior to anyone realizing that the hand was indeed concealed. Let's say that I put up two 6 dots and a joker. It is clear that there are a lot of hands that I could be going for, and I may plan on going for FFFF 2 44 666 8888. Suppose that later on I decided to go for FF 222 444 666 888. Why isn't the joker with the 6 dots redeemable? Also, what if someone redeems the joker that was with the 6 dots when the person who made the exposure still planned on going for the hand with 4 flowers? We need clarification on this.According to some comments on Mah Jongg Thats It!, The NMJL disagrees with you.
>I always look forward to your opinions
>Susan
Hi, Susan! Are we talking about what I wrote in FAQ 19P? (The entirety of this response is based on that assumption.) Is this the "comment" you're referring to? ...
Exposed Concealed Hand - Upon death declaration due to exposing a hand that was supposed to be concealed, all tiles (including jokers) are returned to the rack. See rule 3(b), page 16, of the official rulebook.
So let's take a look at rule 3(b). For ease of reading, I have numbered its three sentences:
1. When a player declares Mah Jongg in error and has been playing an exposed hand, the Jokers which were in the correctly called exposure before the error, may be redeemed by any of the other players with a like tile, when it is their turn.
2. However, at the point the hand becomes dead, the part of the hand that was in error is returned to [the sloping front of] the rack, and no Jokers may be redeemed by any of the other players.
3. But a concealed hand that has been incorrectly exposed for a declaration of Mah Jongg must be returned to [the sloping front of] the rack, the errant declarer stops picking and discarding, and nothing can be redeemed from the concealed hand.
My "Exposed Concealed Hand" description is based on the third sentence of rule 3(b). I got into
a rather involved (7 parts!) discussion with Bee and Bonnie and Harriett in January 2016. See bulletinbd-archive37.htm#beebonnet. If you search the page for the phrase "returning dead," you'll find all 7 parts of the conversation and see how it transpired over several days. Readers' questions caused me to closely examine the wording of rule 3(b) and identify some clauses that are open to interpretation.
By the time all 7 parts of that January 2016 conversation had run their course, I concluded that sentence 3 only applies to exposure of enough sets that indicate that the hand being made (and in the process of being exposed) is supposed to remain concealed. I concluded that, due to sentence 2 of rule 3(b), only the subsequent set(s) that unambiguously indicate a concealed hand need be returned to the sloping front of the rack.
I concluded that sentence 2 of rule 3(b) should apply if a Concealed hand is partially exposed, with the first exposure being ambiguous. I do not believe the rule is intended to say that even ambiguous exposures should be returned to the sloping front of the rack when part of a Concealed hand.
In the case of the example you've set forth, I agree with you that the pung of 6D should remain atop the rack, with its joker still available for redemption.
I'm thinking I could probably edit FAQ 19P to clarify this. Would you agree?
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 27, 2017
Column 693
>From: "lindaz
>Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 7:32 AM
>Subject: column 693
>Hi Tom,
>I learned a valuable lesson today after doing #693. I completely overlooked other possible answers on several of your questions. Just shows me that however much I think I know the card, I shouldn't get too confident. Most of the answers I missed were on the hands I rarely play, like 2017 #1. I think I need to cure my lazy habit of only playing the hands I'm comfortable with. Thanks for a great quiz!
>Linda
\(^_^)/ That's what I was going for, Linda!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 27, 2017
This set doesn't fit
>From: Jackie Z
>To: Tom@Sloperama
>Cc: Marc Z
>Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 10:44 AM
>Subject: Mah Jongg set question
>Hi Tom,
>We inherited a MahJongg set from my mother-in-law that doesn't seem to fit any of types you describe in http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq/types.htm, so I'm hoping you can shed some light on the matter.
>It was bought in China, so I assumed it was Chinese, but it has American-style numbers and letters on the tiles. The tiles are bone-and-bamboo. It could be a 1920 Chinese set, but it was bought in the last 10 years, and it has 152 tiles (1"x3/4"x1/2"), 4 of which have rectangles on them, and 4 of which are blank. It also has counting sticks and dice(4) like a Japanese set! Plus 4 circular markers with wind symbols. It has no racks or circular disks with holes in them.
>Here is a picture of the tiles and a little bit of the cloth-covered case they came in.
>MahJongg set
>It's never been used, so I'm guessing it's worth about $50 on ebay.
>I'm interested in knowing how you would characterize the set and whether you think my assessment of it's value is accurate.
>Thanks for your response,
>Jackie
>(\(\
>(-.-)
>( )
>(")(")
Hi, Jackie and Marc!
I found your email in my spam folder when I checked it this morning (a precaution I always take before emptying it). Thus the delay in replying.
You have a bone-and-bamboo set, but it was made in the 1990s (or later) - not the 1920s.
I mentioned such a set to Timothy A almost 4 weeks ago (on Dec. 1) - you can scroll down and see what we discussed about it at that time. Here's a photo of my set (you can see they're the same):
You wrote:
It was bought in China, so I assumed it was Chinese, but it has American-style numbers and letters on the tiles.
It was made in China for export to other countries. It's a Chinese-style set, in that it doesn't have 8 jokers or racks. It can be converted to an American set by stickering the 4 blanks (and Americans would probably need the Chinese jokers to be stickered too). I have two such sets, and I stickered 8 jokers in one of them. (In my photo above, I show both the extra blanks and Chinese jokers of one set, with the stickered jokers of the other set.)
Also, the bone is not the same kind of bone used in the 1920s. 1920s sets were made with cow shinbone. These 1990s sets are made of pulverized, bleached, reconstituted fishbone. See FAQ 7C. You can link to the FAQs above left.
4 of which have rectangles on them
Those are called "white dragons."
and 4 of which are blank.
As you might expect, most people call those "blanks," but some players use those as white dragons (you could use either the rectangle-design tiles OR the blank tiles as your white dragons).
There's one oddity about the arrangement of the tiles in your photo - your jokers are in between the red dragons and the flowers (where the rectangle white dragons ought to be). If the cellophane is still wrapped around the tiles, that was done by the manufacturer. The manufacturer also apparently placed the #4 flowers in the wrong columns (the fish flower should be beneath the fisherman flower).
You can read about the different dragon and flower designs in FAQ 7E.
It's never been used, so I'm guessing it's worth about $50 on ebay.
Those sets went for about $70 in the nineties. They're harder to find now, and if the case is still in like-new condition, I don't see why it would be worth anything less than $80 today. I don't think you should sell it for less than $90.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 27, 2017
How do you do a 3-player Charleston?
>From: Gayle Y
>Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 5:29 PM
>Subject: Playing with the dummy in American Maj Jongg
>To Tom,
>How do you play with 3 players. We were told not to do the Charleston, but
>do not understand how the player to the left, right or across gets rid of the three tiles. Does the dummy
>build a hand ( 4, 4, 4, !) ?
>Thank you.
>Gayle
Happy boxing day, Gayle. You wrote:
How do you play with 3 players. We were told not to do the Charleston, but
>do not understand how the player to the left, right or across gets rid of the three tiles.
If you don't do a Charleston, then how does ANYBODY have 3 tiles to "get rid of"? Don't tell me... you are doing a Charleston ANYWAY, even though you're not supposed to? Harumph! Harumph, I say (tapping a foot and scowling).
Just kidding. EVERYbody ignores the "don't do the Charleston" rule.
Does the dummy
>build a hand ( 4, 4, 4, !) ?
Understand: the three-player Charleston is NOT supported by the official rules. That means there IS NO official way to do a 3-player Charleston!!! Everybody does it their own way, and nobody can tell them how they're "supposed to" do it (since they're not supposed to do it at all, as you yourself acknowledged).
I have written about ways people do the three-player Charleston at the following places on my website:
Column 532
FAQ 13A
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
Boxing Day, 2017
Column 693
>From: Roni Y
>Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 6:15 PM
>Subject: A mistake on column #693?
>Hi Tom,
>I think I may have found a mistake in column #693 on December 24.
>For problem number 6 the answer says:
>"6. Just two Quints hands possible: #1 and #2. Her hot tiles are winds, dragons, and twos in the other two suits."
>But can't it also be Quint #3? FF 22222 33 44444
>Thank you for your column, I enjoy it very much!
>Roni Y
>From: "service@paypal
>Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 6:17 PM
>Subject: Reference: MJ@Sloperama Sloperama Mah-Jongg Answers - Donation from Roni Y
>Hello Thomas Sloper ,
>This email confirms that you have received a donation of$5.00 USD from Roni Y
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>PayPal
Quite right, Roni!
I was in so much haste to write that column amid my holiday preparations that I overlooked the parenthetical on that hand. Well aware that Quints #4 was "these nos. only," I blithely made an ad hoc assumption, forgetting momentarily that #3 was flexible. So yes, 3C 4C and F are also hot.
And thanks for the donation!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 26, 2017
I have just started learning Chinese, part 2
>From: REBECCA E
>Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 10:18 AM
>Subject: Re: Chinese Mahjongg question
>I apologize: when I asked about making a concealed kong into a pung, I meant making it into a chow.
>The rule I read from Mahjongtime.com says:
>"In addition, the Kong cannot be split once exposed. However, if a Kong is made from the existing hand, the player can conceal it from the others. The advantage of concealing a Kong is that the player can split the 4 tiles and use one tile to form a Chow if necessary. Whichever the case, the player then draws from the back end of the wall for a tile and discard as usual."
>Does "existing hand" mean only what one gets in the first deal, or would it include drawing from the wall?
>Also, if an additional tile is drawn from the back of the wall, but then later the kong turns to a chow, what is done about the extra tile?
>Thank you for your help,
>Becky
Hi, Becky! You wrote:
Does "existing hand" mean only what one gets in the first deal, or would it include drawing from the wall?
I agree it could be worded better. What this means is when a player holds four identical tiles within one's concealed hand of fourteen tiles. Either it just happened and I drew the fourth from the wall, or I already had the four tiles in my hand. Either way, I've decided to use the four as a kong. I can meld (lay down) the four tiles, just as I do when making a pung - but because this is a kong, I can place them face down (some of them or all of them face down, depending on the rule in use). This is called a "concealed kong." For scoring purposes, the melding of the concealed kong does not disqualify the hand from being considered "concealed." However, because your turn is now ending, if you discard a tile, you'll have thirteen tiles - four of them on the table and the other nine in your concealed hand. You won't be able to make "four sets and a pair," because with just nine remaining tiles you could only make "three sets," or "two sets and two pairs." The kong being four tiles ruins your tile count, see? So you have to take an extra tile from the back end of the wall, and if it doesn't give you "four sets and a pair," you discard one of your tiles. Now technically you have fourteen tiles - but the kong counts as a set, and with the remaining ten tiles you can make "three sets and a pair" with a fifteenth tile from the wall or from someone's discard.
if an additional tile is drawn from the back of the wall, but then later the kong turns to a chow, what is done about the extra tile?
If you did NOT meld your four identical tiles, you do not have an extra tile.
If you melded the kong, it will never turn into a pung and a chow. There is an exception to this, called "robbing the kong," but a kong can be robbed only at the instant an exposed pung is promoted to a kong. I recommend you get a book, or use a website with complete detailed rules for the variant you are learning. You'll find books listed in FAQ 3. You'll find websites describing various Chinese variants in FAQ 4b (http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq/mjfaq04.html#Official). Make sure you know you're looking at the rules of the same variant you've been learning, or you'll REALLY get confused!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 23, 2017
I have just started learning Chinese Mah-Jongg
>From: REBECCA E
>Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 7:00 PM
>Subject: Chinese Mahjongg question
>Hi Tom:
>I have just started learning about Chinese Mahjongg and have 2 questions about kongs. First, is it possible to have more than 1. If there are 2, then the hand would win with 16 tiles.
>Also, some online directions for concealed kongs mentioned being able to move a tile out a kong to make a pung. Do two tiles then get discarded since without a kong the Mahjongg hand would be the normal 14 tiles?
>Thank you for your help. I'm hoping with a simple rummy-type version of the game, I can induce more people to play.
>Becky
Hi, Becky! You wrote:
... about kongs. First, is it possible to have more than 1. If there are 2, then the hand would win with 16 tiles.
This is a Frequently Asked Question (an "FAQ") that's asked by beginning players of Asian variants of mah-jongg. I have written answers to all the most-frequently-asked mah-jongg questions. In regards to your question: Please read FAQ 20-D.
You can link to FAQ 20 above left. After you've landed at the
FAQ 20
page, please bookmark it so you can easily return to it anytime you have a mah-jongg question. Answers to all of the most frequently-asked beginner questions about Chinese mah-jongg are found in FAQ 20. Please always check the FAQs first, before asking me a question. Thanks!
Also, some online directions for concealed kongs mentioned being able to move a tile out a kong to make a pung.
What? Where did you read such a thing? Once you've made a kong, you can't "demote" it to a pung. Next time you write me, please tell me what book you are learning from (or what website) so I can better understand the source of your confusion.
I'm hoping with a simple rummy-type version of the game, I can induce more people to play.
Many have done that before you. One simplification you can make is to forbid kongs (see how kongs have already complicated things for you)! Another simplification is to remove the flowers from the game, or to make them "wild flowers" (allowing a player to use a flower to represent any tile).
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 22, 2017
They're trying to tell me there's such a thing as seat rotation in the rules. Tell me they're wrong!
>From: "judyr
>Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 4:33 PM
>Subject: Question about rotating seats
>A group I play with insists it's a mahj rule that after everyone is east once you rotate. The person that was the first east moves one seat to the right. I don't think this is a rule. They insist it is. Can you help? Judy
Hi, Judy!
The nerve of some people, telling you stuff is "in the rules"! I'll tell you one way you can check out this kind of thing: by having a copy of the official rulebook, "Mah Jongg Made Easy," by the National Mah Jongg League.
This is the League's official rulebook.
It was revised in 2013. Every table
should have an up-to-date copy!
And there's another way to check out whether something is really a rule or not: by keeping and reading the yearly newsletters from the National Mah Jongg League.
Every year, the League issues rule clarifications
in its newsletter. Every person who buys the card
directly from the League receives a subscription to
the newsletter, which is mailed every January.
But if you don't have the rulebook and you don't have a collection of newsletters, there's a third way: you could check my Frequently Asked Questions. FAQ 19-BB answers the question, "how does seat rotation work?" You can link to the FAQs above left. After you've landed at the
FAQ 19
page, please bookmark it so you can easily return to it anytime you have a mah-jongg question. On the FAQ 19 page, you can click a link in the index to jump to your answer, or search the page for keywords.
Answers to all of the most frequently-asked questions about
American (NMJL)
mah-jongg are found in
FAQ 19.
Please always check the FAQs first, before asking me a question. Thanks!
I guess you find it annoying to have to get up and switch seats every hour or so, huh? The nerve of some people, making people stand up and move several whole inches! I don't blame you for doubting their motives!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 20, 2017
Donation
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Thank you, Greg! Happy holidays to you!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 20, 2017
MCR vs. MIL, part 2
>From: Juna Berry Madrone
>Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 10:42 PM
>Subject: Re: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>I have taught Mahjong, MCR rules to over 35 people. I am listed as a teacher on your website, although now that I have moved to Bali, Indonesia, I need to update my contact info.
>Mahjong was officially recognized by IMSA (International Mind Sport Association) last year. There are now many MIL tournaments worldwide. Here is a link to the article reporting the IMSA recognition from Mahjong News (sorry if you have to copy & paste): https://www.mahjongnews.com/index.php/news/reports/144-imsarecog.html
>Thanks for your answer,
>Juna
You're welcome, Juna. I may have been fuzzy on what was future aspirations and what has already occurred, but I can say for certain that duplicate mah-jongg is not the only international competition variant. You can continue teaching MCR with a clear conscience, and with reasonable expectations of having plenty of occasions to play MCR in competitions in the Pacific world. If and when duplicate becomes more widespread, it probably still won't "take over" the mah-jongg world. People still enjoy the mix of skill and luck afforded by non-duplicate variants.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 12, 2017
MCR vs. WMO vs. MIL ... ???
>From: Juna B
>Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 8:59 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is: Regarding International Competitions with MCR, Official Chinese Tournament Rules. I'm confused about the difference between WMO (World Mahjong Organization) and MIL (Mahjong International League). I've been practicing and teaching others for years with the aim of eventually competing internationally. Are all international mahjong tournaments now duplicate mahjong games? I understand that the purpose of MIL is to promote Duplicate Mahjong and they seem to have many international tournaments. I don't want to play Duplicate Mahjong.
>Thank you,
>Juna
Hi, Juna! You wrote:
I'm confused about the difference between WMO (World Mahjong Organization) and MIL (Mahjong International League).
The former is the organization behind Majiang Competition Rules (MCR), and who organizes competitions in mainland China. Their website is http://www.chinamajiang.com/.
The latter is, as you said, the organization behind Duplicate Mahjong. The ultimate goal is to get mah-jongg accepted as a "mind sport" and part of international sports events. Google the term "mind sports Olympics" and check out the Wikipedia entries. Under Wikipedia's "World Mind Sports Games" entry, you'll see that bridge, chess, checkers (draughts), go, and xiangqi ("Chinese chess") are the first five games in the pantheon. The MIL's goal is to have mah-jongg added. The "duplicate" aspect was added to satisfy the IMSA's requirement that the games be all mind and no luck.
I've been practicing and teaching others for years with the aim of eventually competing internationally.
What variant have you been practicing and teaching? MCR?
Are all international mahjong tournaments now duplicate mahjong games?
No. The duplicate approach removes individual randomness, to make the game all skill and no luck. The duplicate approach can be applied to any variant (MCR, American, Japanese...). When or if mah-jongg becomes part of international mind sports competitions, duplicate will be used. But in international mah-jongg tournaments, mah-jongg rules will be non-duplicate as usual (Japanese, MCR, Zung Jung...).
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 11, 2017
How to prevent cat games?
>From: carrollj
>Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 8:57 PM
>Subject: Mahj ?
>Dear Tom,
>My group played seven games last night and four had no winner! (We called them 'cat games ' but I see you call it a 'wall game ').
>Is there anything to do to prevent this or are there strategies we might be use? Is there a type of player/play that could make this more common?
>Thank you!
> Jenine
Hi, Jenine!
I've had several people ask me why wall games seem to be happening more with the 2017 card. I wrote about that in column 684. And I've answered another frequent question about wall games in
FAQ 19-BT.
To answer your new question, though: I guess you could have fewer wall games if you stop playing so cagey. Got a hot tile another player might need for mahj? Go ahead and throw it! She'll win and you'll pay her double - but at least you won't be visited by that darn cat! >(^o^)<
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Creator of
the weekly Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated!
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 11, 2017
Column 692, oopsie in #3
>From: Suzanne L
>Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 1:10 PM
>Subject: December 3rd column hand 3
>Hi Tom
>I think you made a mistake. We should hold 3C and 4C for the Consecutive Run hand. I would also hold the 7D for a possible 2017 hand, so I would also hold the red dragon.
>Suzanne L
Hi Suzanne!
You are right, I misstated the numbers of the keepers for Consec #2. I can see holding the 7 for 2017. I was already holding Red for Consec dragon hands - but I think 2017 #2 is too far a stretch.
Thanks for your comments! May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Creator of
the weekly Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated!
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 11, 2017
My ... draggin', part 5
>From: Belinda
>Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2017 10:03 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>Hi Tom,
>Regarding my comment on 12/4 about my group not liking the Chinese dragons, it was because they had to stop and ask "what is this?" Every time they got one. I know, it seems silly, as how can you not know what they are? Red is red, green is green and the soap is similar to the American soap. But, they just could not wrap their minds around dragons that did not look like dragons. Me? I loved them, they were beautiful! I should never have sold my set. But the lady who bought it absolutely loved it!
>Bee
I agree, Bee. It is silly - how can someone not know that it's not a dot, it's not a bam, it's not a crak, it's not a wind, it's not a flower, and it's not a joker. If it's green, what else could it be but a Green Dragon???
And how many times do you have to give me that "what is this" stuff...
I roll my eyes.
Too bad you sold that set.
Tom
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 10, 2017
Players who put a tile on the table in front of their rack
>From: "ssnd...
>Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 5:50 PM
>Subject: Unracked Tiles
>Tom,
>Is there a rule concerning exactly where all tiles must be located? On the Mah Jongg That's It! Facebook page there has been some discussion about players who may put a tile or two on the table in front of their rack and whether or not that person should be called dead. I am assuming that players do this when they know which tiles they are definitely going to discard. Technically the tiles are in their possession (usually on top of their card). I have also seen players place "unwanted" tiles on the flat part of their rack (unexposed) before they have an exposure. Is there a rule concerning this?
>Thank you,
>Susan
Hi, Susan!
Although I'm a member of that Facebook group, I don't check it regularly, so I haven't followed this particular thread.
As long as all her tiles are on her rack or between her rack and the edge of the table, it's as you said: technically, the tiles are in her possession.
You wrote...
I have also seen players place "unwanted" tiles on the flat part of their rack (unexposed)
I assume that the tile is standing on end, facing the player herself - but the tile's orientation doesn't really matter (I'm just trying to visualize the picture you're painting).
Is there a rule concerning this?
No. The National Mah Jongg League has never issued a rule about this.
But I imagine that if this was questioned in a tournament, the tournament judge would order the player to keep her tiles on her rack according to custom.
In a non-tournament game, if other players verbally object to the practice and are unanimous in their objection, then it would be very disharmonious for her not to abide by the players' request. If the other players unanimously decide to call her dead, they are within their rights (one or two persons issuing a death challenge that is unsupported by the official rules is not enough). If feelings are strong enough on this point, the group could be in danger of breaking up.
As a teacher, I encourage my students to develop their skill beyond the point where they need to keep a finger on the card, or put gaps between concealed tiles, or utilize more real estate than is provided by the sloping front of her rack.
As a player, I am quite forgiving of novices. My patience wears thin with players who are too slow, and with players who are not nice, and with players who insist on promulgating table rules as official rules. But when I'm playing with someone who is so confused by a straight uninterrupted line of 13 or 14 tiles that she has to resort to practices that give the other players clues about her hand (such as those outlined in the previous paragraph), I'm fine with that - I'll read all the clues she wants to give me, and I'll gladly take her quarters.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
Pearl Harbor Day, 2017
My club's rule
>From: Kathy O
>Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2017 3:09 PM
>Subject: Hand twice
>My club has rule (once you win a hand, can't play again) on same day. Looked in your book, on line.
>I personally like rule
>Kathy O
Hi, Kathy!
So... you're telling me about your club's rule, so I can... I don't know, add it to my collection of table rules, I guess. Thanks.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 5, 2017
Le Jeu Chinois, part deux
>From: Florent V
>Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2017 3:05 PM
>Subject: Hi again, tom!
>Hi again tom sorry for being so late to answer you and thank you a lot for giving so fast answers :)
>To answer you, i got about 126 scorings sticks some looks like they do not fit in this set
>I confirm to you that it's not ivory but all bones & bamboo (except for box wich i don't know)
>The four discs are inside the mingg but in various states as you'll see on the picture
>I didn't send you the upper side of the case the last time, so there it is :)
>I send you new photos that would maybe help you about the estimation. The wind discs are, as you can see, almost erased, some of the tiles are a bit used by the drying of the wood. The whole set is obviously used and old but for me look nice and still playable
Hi, Florent.
I would have liked it if you would have said which of the condition grades you felt apply to your set. But you didn't, so I will go by your photos and your description: "obviously used and old but ... look nice and still playable." I see obvious flaws in the photos: uneven discoloration (some tiles being darker than others), rather heavy Haversian streaking, broken drawer pulls, non-separated shrinkage of the bamboo, some cracking and/or separation of the light-colored (bone?) inlay on the box, and paint loss on the wind discs. To me, that indicates the overall condition of the set is just Good ("worn but reasonably attractive; any normal person would notice the defects without having to look for them"). Despite the low quality of the bone used for the tiles, the carving is well detailed. The intricate design of the box makes the box itself more desirable than the pieces contained in it, so I believe the set is worth closer to US$100 than it would be worth if the box was more ordinary. Added next morning, Dec. 6: in fact, the box alone is so desirable that a collector might spend upwards of US$200 for the set.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 5, 2017
What's the scoop on the dead wall, part 2
>From: Peter Y
>Sent: Monday, December 4, 2017 11:15 PM
>Subject: Question about the "dead wall"
>Hello, Mr. Sloper,
>thank you for explaining the "dora" term. And I'd like to ask another question: what this "dead wall" symbolizes? Or, at least, symbolized originally in the Chinese Classical mahjong? I've seen that it is called "wan pai" in Japanese - "king's tiles" (not so ominous as in English). What was it for? What king was it supposed to be? Thank you.
>With best regards,
>Peter
Hi, Peter.
Since I was not involved in the creation process of any dead wall rule, I can only guess as to the motivation for creating it. I can speak, however, to the effects a dead wall has on the play of the game. And I can comment on the terminology.
You've probably heard of the "dummy hand" that is dealt to an empty side of the table in Euchre and Bridge. The effect is to remove a small set of random tiles/cards from the play, thus affecting strategy - no player can just count the cards and know what the odds are of getting a desired tile/card which will inevitably appear at some point. Consider that in Klondike solitaire, a large number of cards are hidden from play, face down, and some players like to further increase the difficulty by flipping not every card, but a short stack of three cards, from the draw pile. Additionally, setting aside 14 or so tiles and omitting them from play has the effect of shortening the game. This has the added effect of altering the odds of winning, from 25% to 20% (since the "wall game," a game nobody wins, happens more often), heightening the joy of achieving a win when it happens.
"The king's hand" does not refer to any specific king or emperor. It sounds cooler to say "those are the king's tiles" than to say "those are the dummy's tiles." When I speak or write about the vagaries of chance in mah-jongg, I think it's more in keeping with the ethos and mythology of mah-jongg to refer to "the mah-jongg Goddesses" (when discussing American mah-jongg, which is played primarily by women) or "the mah-jongg Gods" (when discussing un-American mah-jongg), rather than "dumb luck." Thus "the king's hand" rather than "the dummy hand." What's the mystery here is why Bridge and Euchre use the latter terminology. And I guess "dead wall" is just descriptive, without use of colorful terminology.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 2, 2017
My search is draggin', part 4
>From: Belinda
>Sent: Monday, December 4, 2017 10:06 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>For the player looking for an American set but with Chinese dragons - I had a set from Wherethewindsblow.com It was a Red Hat set which had red glitter backs with a light lavender face, red hats as jokers with extras included. I loved it, however I sold it as my group did not like the Chinese dragons! Perhaps they can help the player find a set.
>Bee
Thanks for the tip, Bee. I don't like that your group didn't like the chung and fa dragons. It smacks of a dislike or disrespect for the authentic Chinese origins of the game, and that bothers me.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 5, 2017
If I'm playing a concealed hand…
>From: Donna G
>Sent: Monday, December 4, 2017 10:37 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>If you are doing a concealed hand are you allowed to claim a joker from another player's exposure?
Hi, Donna!
Welcome to my website! The question you have asked has been asked many times before. It's a Frequently Asked Question (an "FAQ"). I have written answers to all the most-frequently-asked questions. In regards to your question:
Please read FAQ 19-BD.
You can link to the FAQs above left.
After you've landed at the
FAQ 19
page, please bookmark it so you can easily return to it anytime you have a mah-jongg question. On the FAQ 19 page, you can click a link in the index to jump to your answer, or search the page for keywords.
Answers to all of the most frequently-asked questions about
American (NMJL)
mah-jongg are found in
FAQ 19.
Please always check the FAQs first, before asking me a question. Thanks!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Rochester, New York, USA
December 4, 2017
My search is draggin', part 3
>From: Timothy A
>Sent: Monday, December 4, 2017 9:53 AM
>Subject: Re: Mar Jongg Set Question
>You wrote 'So I guess you're saying you're going to buy a new set of tiles to put into your 1940 case’, well the answer is a simple Yes and No.
>I teach American Mah Jongg at a local Senior center and already own 2 complete sets (one of each style). Occasionally I have more then 8 people wanting to learn however and so have to turn them away. As such I’m looking for the tiles to put into the old case for use at that time. I would hold onto the existing tiles so the original set would remain intact.
>Because I do run into color blind persons from time to time (I play with one regularly also) and they do have issues with the ‘American’ style dragons, I’m looking for an inexpensive set with the Chinese chung and fa characters.
>Tim A
OK, IC. Good luck 2U, Tim!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Rochester, New York, USA
December 4, 2017
My search is draggin', part 2
>From: Timothy A
>Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2017 6:32 PM
>Subject: Re: Mar Jongg Set Question
>HI Tom, Thanks for the quick response.
>You wrote ‘Just to be clear…’ and you are absolutely correct. Just what I’m looking for.
>If you don’t mind a link <https://www.nationalmahjonggleague.org/store.aspx#>, item # 29 (American-style) and Item # 32 (Chinese Style) are two examples of what I find. Now I know set #32 above has a black back but does that really add $40 to the cost?
>I have an old 1940 set (it includes a NMJL card from that year) but doesn’t have Jokers. As such, I don’t need racks or a case. As you suggested, I’ll have to make some phone calls to see what some of the online vendors have but might not be showing online.
>Tim A.
Hi, Tim.
You pointed to the store on the NMJL website. Set #29 is a typical American set, with American-style dragons in which the red and green dragons differ only in the color of paint.
Personally, I wish the manufacturer would get wise to the fact that this is a bad practice - that the dragon designs NEED to look different. You also pointed to set #32, which (like sets 30, 31, and 33) have Chinese chung and fa characters. Those sets are all two-tone (having non-white backs).
Personally, I think this type of set is both more authentic and more attractive. You followed up with a question:
Now I know set #32 above has a black back but does that really add $40 to the cost?
I really don't know what to answer to that, except to note that the plain white tiles are priced at $55.00 and the pink- and green- and black- and red-backed tiles are priced at $99.95, so: "apparently so."
I am not privy to the manufacturing process or the cost of making those tiles. You do realize that for the plain tiles, they only have to make blank tiles and apply the designs, but for the two-tone tiles, they have to make fronts and backs and apply designs to the fronts and somehow affix the backs to the fronts (or make 2-layer plastic to start from, I don't know). I guess what I'm struggling to say is that I am not in any position to either explain or justify the price differential sufficiently to satisfy you.
I have an old 1940 set (it includes a NMJL card from that year) but doesn’t have Jokers. As such, I don’t need racks or a case.
So I guess you're saying you're going to buy a new set of tiles to put into your 1940 case. What are you going to do with your 1940 tiles? Seems odd to put new tiles in an old case with old racks. If you decide to sell your old tiles, their value will be reduced by dint of not having a case or racks. If you sold the 1940 set, surely that would help offset the cost of a new set in case with racks.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 3, 2017
How is the NMJL governed, part 2
>From: "lindaz
>Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 11:27 AM
>Subject:
>Hi Tom,
>Thanks for the detailed info you provided--now I have many search options! Do you think it's worth a try to get my questions answered by writing to the NMJL?
You're welcome, Linda. All I can tell you is that "worth" is subjective (whether something is "worth a try" or not is up to YOU to decide).
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 1, 2017
My search is draggin'
>From: Timothy A
>Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 5:19 AM
>Subject: Mar Jongg Set Question
>Hi Tom, Just a (hopefully) quick question about buying sets for use in playing American Mahjong.
>In your Column #547, you refer to the ‘American’ and ‘Chinese’ sets and their Dragon Designs. I play with a person that is Colorblind and so has difficulty with the Dragons of the ‘American’ set.
>While I can find inexpensive (tiles only) ‘American’ style sets ($40-$70), the least expensive ‘Chinese’ style set I can find starts at $120 or so. Do you know of a place that sells the ‘Chinese’ style set (including Jokers) at a more reasonable price?
>Tim A.
Good morning, Tim.
Just to be clear: you want a set to play American mah-jongg (complete with 8 jokers), but with Asian dragon tiles (not American-style dragon tiles).
"Chung" and "fa" dragon tiles, as shown in FAQ 7D
And you don't want racks (you want the tiles only), and you want it for under $100.
If you want the tiles to be plastic (and to have Western indices in the corners of the tiles), the set will likely come with racks, and will likely cost more than $100. This set (below), which is pictured in FAQ 7D, is made of reconstituted fishbone and bamboo:
Sets like the above were sold widely in the late 1990s and early 2000s. The tiles are perhaps slightly smaller than the typical size of American tiles. I had to put joker stickers on the blanks and the Chinese jokers (the set in the photo also includes 8 extra tiles borrowed from an identical set, for the purposes of the photograph). You might find such sets still on sale somewhere, perhaps on eBay. These bone-and-bamboo sets don't come with racks, and 17 years ago they cost under $80, but I don't know how much they are today.
I own a nice plastic set with chung and fa dragons; it was made in Hong Kong by Kwong Fat Cheung (see FAQ 7Q, and click "A Hong Kong MJ Adventure," above left). I don't remember how much it cost (I bought it from one of the American vendors, I don't remember which), and I don't remember if it came with racks. It probably wasn't as cheap as what you're looking for. For what this is worth: I don't think any American-style set that costs less than $70 is worth owning; the tiles of such so-called "travel sets" are thin, chimey, and slippery, and no fun to play mah-jongg with.
There are also American-style sets in which the red dragon is not depicted similarly to the green dragon (there is a graphical difference). But again, the price is probably going to be over $100. And many old Bakelite sets had differently-depicted dragons (but the price of those is definitely over $100). See also FAQ 7S. You can link to the FAQs above left.
I think what you'll have to do is phone the online vendors and make inquiries. Good luck with your search!
May the tiles be with you. Literally!
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 1, 2017
How is the NMJL governed?
>From: "lindaz
>Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 5:55 AM
>Subject:
>Hi Tom,
>Thanks for your answer about "scoring sticks". Now I have another question: I'm interested in learning about how the governing body of the NMJL works. Who makes the rules interpretations; how are the League members selected; did Larry Unger replace Ruth after she passed away or is there an election for president? How are the hands for each year's card chosen? If you could answer these or direct me to a website that has this information I would be very grateful!
>Thanks so much, Linda
Good morning, Linda!
I am unable to answer all your questions, because I don't know the answers. I only know what I have been told by Larry and David (and what I was told by Ruth), and none of that answers the specifics you asked about.
League members are self-selected (you become a member when you buy the card from the League). How the leadership of the League is selected I don't know, but it's within the legal requirements for 501c(3) organizations. Nobody owns the League (non-profits don't work that way). If you want to know more, GuideStar.org shows that the League's EIN number is 13-3791092, bridge number 3789440182, and cause area (NTEE code) is Public Foundations (T30). GuideStar's listing for the League is not complete, and shows an old address (or at least an address in NYC that differs from the League's address listed on the League's card and website). GreatNonProfits.org lists the same information as GuideStar. NonProfitList.org is more difficult to use - you can't search by name or EIN. Using that EIN, I found that the IRS lists the organization as a PF (private foundation). If you open your 2017 bulletin, you'll find a proxy form on page 7. The annual meeting of the members was held on February 7 this year; if you bought your card directly from the League last year, you'll receive the 2018 bulletin in January, with information on the next annual meeting.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 30, 2017
Robbing the kong
>From: Roni H
>Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 3:21 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>We had a discussion in my Chinese MJ group regarding robbing the kong. I said it has to be when there is an exposed pung and a player draws a tile to make it a Kong and it is someone’s MJ. The person who was going to Kong has to pay the person who has the MJ the amount of her MJ plus the additional amount for her robbing the kong.
>
>Another player had a pung in her hand and someone threw her tile for her Kong and someone else said MJ. She said that is also robbing the Kong.
>
>I have your book and I looked up robbing the Kong. On page 185 it states promoting an exposed pung to a Kong. In the appendix page 242 it states that a player is permitted to go out on a tile that a player uses to promote a Kong. Either case is considered a win by discard. In the second scenario “exposed” pung is not mentioned.
>
> With the exposed pung I assume the one who is going to Kong pays. If the second scenario is also valid there are now three players involved. The one who discarded, the one who is promoting her hidden pung into a Kong and the person who calls MJ. And if valid who pays?
>Some clarification please. As always your time and help are greatly appreciated.
>Roni
Hi, Roni!
You didn't mention which Chinese variant your group plays, but you cited my book, which describes MCR rules. (I know you have my book, but I don't know if everyone in your group plays by the rules in my book.)
You wrote:
I said it has to be when there is an exposed pung and a player draws a tile to make it a Kong and it is someone’s MJ.
In other words, when someone picks a tile from the wall that lets her promote an exposed pung to a kong. Yes. That's one situation in which a kong can be robbed.* You are correct.*
Another player had a pung in her hand and someone threw her tile for her Kong and someone else said MJ. She said that is also robbing the Kong.
No. Read on...
I have your book and I looked up robbing the Kong. On page 185 it states promoting an exposed pung to a Kong. In the appendix page 242 it states that a player is permitted to go out on a tile that a player uses to promote a Kong. Either case is considered a win by discard. In the second scenario “exposed” pung is not mentioned.
I guess I was assuming that readers understood that the only kind of pung that can be promoted is an exposed pung. If you have a concealed triplet in the hand and you obtain a fourth such tile, that is not "promoting."
There are two ways you can obtain a fourth tile to add to a concealed pung and create a kong - (1) by picking it from the wall yourself and then melding a "concealed kong" or (2) by taking a discard and calling "kong." The latter is not promotion - it's declaration (and subsequently making an exposed kong).
If you call "kong" but another player calls "mah-jongg," then the mah-jongg declarer gets the tile, and you weren't involved at all (other than having your request for the tile be thwarted by the other player's mah-jongg declaration).
So I don't think I need to issue a change to the RDWW errata (adding the word "exposed" to page 242).
With the exposed pung I assume the one who is going to Kong pays.
With the exposed pung, and promotion by discard, it's the discarder who pays.
But as noted above, the kong never gets made (the fourth tile was hijacked by the robber) so the issue of someone having wanted the winning tile for a kong is moot.*
But with the exposed pung, and promotion by self-pick, it is indeed the konger who pays (as you said). The robber is paid by the player who caused the winning tile to appear on the table.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 29, 2017
* Edits made the next day upon re-reading last night's post. - Tom
"Scoring sticks"???
>From: "lindaz
>Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 8:13 AM
>Subject:
>Hi Tom,
>I was reading Florent's interesting question about her MJ set (Nov 28) and your answer mentioned "scoring sticks". I searched for the term on your site but couldn't find it. Could you please explain what they are used for?
>Thanks, Linda
Hi, Linda! Hope you had a pleasant Thanksgiving. The use of sticks and chips is explained in FAQ 7D. I know players of American mah-jongg pay one another with coins (actual money), but as I have said often, American mah-jongg is the oddball of the mah-jongg world.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 29, 2017
Le Jeu Chinois
>From: Florent V
>Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 10:48 AM
>Subject: Evaluation of Mah-jong game
>Hey !
>I just saw your site and i'd like your opinion about that game (i'll put photos at the end, sorry in advance for bad quality)
>So, my mom told me that my grand ma got it by a woman who get it from the Aga Khan.
>The book inside the box say "2 years after the war", after reading on internet i guess it's a 1920 one.
>It's in our family for more than 20 years.
>She also told me that the tiles are made of Ivory and Bamboo and the counting sticks are in bones. If she's true the box is in SantalWood and the ornaments are in Ivory.
>There's silver on the drawer.
>I keep searching something that looks like it on internet but i can't, maybe because Ivory become rare or because i search bad :D
>Sorry for my poor english too, i'm french. I hope to read you soon !
>Good evening !
>Florent,
Bonjour, Florent!
I can tell you a little about your set, but since you didn't give me enough information, I can't give you a valuation yet.
I see from your photos that you have the usual 148 tiles, and a mingg with lid (but I cannot tell if all 4 discs are inside it), and a dice coffin complete with lid and 4 dice. I see that your elaborate case is not missing its sliding front. I see from the full-size photos that your tiles are not ivory but rather bone (see FAQ 7C and FAQ 7C2, above left). I see that the tops and bottoms of your tiles show gaps between them where the wood has dried.
The information I do not have from you, which is necessary to deriving a valuation, are:
- How many scoring sticks are there?
- Are there 4 discs inside the mingg?
- What is the condition of all the parts? I need to know, is the set Fair, Good, Very Good, Fine, Mint? You can read how each of those conditions is defined in FAQ 7H, above left.
I cannot tell you how much the set is worth without this crucial information.
To respond to some of the things you said:
my mom told me that my grand ma got it by a woman who get it from the Aga Khan.
"The Aga Khan" is like saying "the President" or "the King" or "the Pope" - there have been several presidents, several kings, and several popes. So, too, there have been more than one Aga Khan. I presume the one in question must be Aga Khan III (Sir Sultan Mohammed Shah). It's not inconceivable that a religious leader of what is now Pakistan (then, it was part of India) would have presented a set made in China and marked with Western indices, together with a mah-jongg book written in French, to this friend of your grandmother's, but without a photo showing the Aga Khan giving the set to your grandmother's friend, or a letter from the lady to the Aga Khan thanking him for his gift, this history would be difficult to prove.
The book inside the box say "2 years after the war", after reading on internet i guess it's a 1920 one.
So you say the book fits into the set - presumably it fits atop the bottom drawer? I see from the full-size photo that the book's author says that it's been 2 and a half years since mah-jongg was introduced to France. That makes me think the book was written no earlier than 1922. That doesn't necessarily mean that the set was made in 1922 - but it is safe to assume that the set was made in the early 1920s.
If she's true the box is in SantalWood and the ornaments are in Ivory.
>There's silver on the drawer.
I can't confirm that the box is sandalwood. I can't confirm there is silver. The inlay on the box is surely not ivory, since the tiles are not ivory. I cannot tell from your photos what the box inlay is made of. The box is ornate and could be valuable, depending on its condition.
If you're curious about your flower tiles, see FAQ 7E. If you're curious what the bits and pieces are or how they're used in mah-jongg, see FAQ 7D.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 2, 2017
Deluxe, vintage, possibly ivory, part 3
>From: "d████
>Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 4:42 AM
>Subject: Re: Majong bamboo & possibly ivory
>Hi Tom--please remove all my emails to you off your blog. Thank you, D████
Sorry you weren't happy, D████,but you ate the steak, so you have to pay. And as it has said atop this page for numerous years, the "price" is for the answer and the question to be given in public. I do regret that I took on a tone of suspicion based on the wording of your original question. It's not that I don't like eBay sellers - I've been an eBay seller myself! I am usually kinder and gentler to eBay sellers who email me questions and identify themselves as eBay sellers. I don't know why I get prickly when I perceive (rightly or wrongly) that they are being cagey. Again: sorry about my tone. Anyway, I've anonymized your name. Whatever you're going to do with that set, good luck!
Tom
Deluxe, vintage, possibly ivory, part 2
>From: "d████
>Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 5:06 PM
>Subject: Re: Majong bamboo & possibly ivory
>Hi Tom--the majong set is older than me and I am 62. My dad got it as a gift from my grandfather when he was stationed in Japan 65 years ago. I’m sure it’s a quality set that is not likely just plastic. The bottom is bamboo however the long pieces that goes with it looks like it could be plastic. Please don't post and pick everything apart that I say, its obvious you are a skilled blogger, thanks. D████
Hi, D████!
I'm glad you came back. I know the tone of my previous reply wasn't as warm and fuzzy as you might have expected. Explanation in a bit.
Now you've added:
My dad got it as a gift from my grandfather when he was stationed in Japan 65 years ago.
Okay. It is conceivable that this plastic-and-bamboo set could be from the post-war years. It's just that your one tile looks like it could have been made as recently as the 1960s or 1970s. I needed more of the story than what you said in your first email.
I’m sure it’s a quality set that is not likely just plastic. The bottom is bamboo however the long pieces that goes with it looks like it could be plastic.
It looks like plastic to me, and I've seen a LOT of mah-jongg sets, and I used to work with a LOT of plastic. In my collection, I have some sets that are plastic backed with bamboo (made in Japan).
Look at the tile in your photo - the top of the tile is very flat (no curvature), with square edges; that is a hallmark of plastic tiles. Consider that plastic tiles are machine made, and bone tiles are cut by hand.
In addition, in your photo there is no Haversian system evident (so no evidence of bone), and there are no Schreger lines (so no evidence of ivory). Have you read FAQ 7c, 7c2, and 7c3 yet? As I said before, all I have to go on is one photo of one tile. You can check your tiles against all the info in the materials FAQs, and I cannot. You have all the real tiles in your set. I have just one photo of just one tile.
Please don't post and pick everything apart that I say, its obvious you are a skilled blogger, thanks.
It's not about me being a "blogger," it's about me having taken a LOT of emailed mah-jongg questions (for about 20 years), and my having to try to figure out what the asker is really trying to find out so I can answer the real question. I've had a lot of dealings with people who try to get answers from me, without their being straightforward about the reason for asking. All I can go from is the email I receive. And your first email to me was very short on information.
Look at the words you used in your first email. If you're not an eBay seller, and you're just trying to find out what your grandfather's Japanese set is made of, why on Earth did you tell me the set is "deluxe"? What on Earth made you tell me it's "vintage"? If you aren't an eBay seller, you sure talk like one!
By the way, I imagine that your set has 144 tiles. Because that's how many tiles a set made in Japan in the early 1950s would have (either that, or 148). If you ever decide to offer the set for sale on eBay, you'll need to provide an exact count (you can't just say it has "several pieces," if you want someone to give you money for it). And it's best not to use vague words like "deluxe" and "vintage." Before you offer the set for sale, I recommend you read FAQ 7N.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 25, 2017
Deluxe, vintage, possibly ivory
>From: "d████
>Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 8:36 AM
>Subject: Majong bamboo & possibly ivory
>Hi--can you give me an idea what this majong set is made of? It’s a deluxe several piece vintage set probably at least 65yrs old.
>Thanks kindly,
>D████
Hi, D████. You wrote:
Subject: Majong bamboo & possibly ivory ... can you give me an idea what this majong set is made of?
It looks like plastic to me. But I can't possibly tell much from one photo of one tile. You should read FAQ 7C and FAQ 7C2 and FAQ 7C3. You can link to the FAQs above left.
It’s a deluxe ...
"Deluxe"? What does that mean? Is that the name of the manufacturing company? Why are you telling me the set is "deluxe"?
... several piece ...
Really. Several pieces. How about that.
... vintage set ...
I don't know what "vintage" means to you. Read column 502 (January, 2012). Click the purple banner atop this page.
... probably at least 65yrs old.
What makes you think the set was made before 1952? It doesn't look that old to me.
D████, a lot of the words you used in your email sound like eBay-style puffery to me. "Deluxe... vintage... possibly ivory... several piece..." Are you an eBay seller who doesn't know much about mah-jongg sets? Were you ripped off by an eBay seller's exaggerated claims? Are you trying to check out an eBay sale to see if you should buy it or not? Don't you think you would get a better answer to your real question if you were more straightforward with the reason for your question?
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 25, 2017
What's the scoop on the dead wall?
>From: lippylip26
>Sent: Friday, November 24, 2017 2:14 AM
>Subject: Drawing supplementary tiles
>Hi Tom
>Finally managed to get hold.of FOSTER ON MAH JONG book 1924
>Am busy reading it
>Saw something interesting
>All the books I have seen on Mah Jong all say that when you draw a Bonus Tile or make up a Kong you draw it from the Dead Wall
>Foster says.other wise
>He says you draw it from the Live Wall
>If that is the case it means there is no access to the Dead Wall at all during the game
>Why did they do it like that and when was the rule changes from the Live Wall to the Dead Wall
Hi, lippylip26,
It's been a while since I went through those 1920s books. Re-checking Foster now, I see that he does indeed make no mention of a dead wall. I checked another 1920s book at random. I was trying to find one that included the American Code of Laws (Babcock, Foster, Hartman, Smith, and Work, 1924) but I didn't find one immediately, so chose Hartman.
Hartman, too, makes no mention of the dead wall. You say the dead wall is in "all the books I have seen on Mah Jong." You didn't name any of those books, which I felt could make it harder for me to answer your question. But then I found the American Code of Laws in Work.
And in the course of digging for your answer, found this link to The American Code of Laws for Mah-Jongg (1924) on the old rec.games.mahjong newsgroup. The introduction to the American Code of Laws begins (emphasis added by me):
Before play begins, the players may select the Mixed-Hand game, the
One-Double game, or the Cleared-Hand game to determine the qualifications
for Mah-jongg. In the absence of a selection, the Mixed-Hand game shall be
played. The details of play are the same in all three games. They differ
only in Mah-jongg qualifications, in the dead wall provision, and in the
scoring.
So, based on this paragraph, I believe the answers to your questions are:
1. The dead wall was likely seen as necessary for certain of the variations that cropped up in the early 1920s in an attempt to mollify the hardcore players.
2. The dead wall was likely introduced in the early 1920s.
I know that the Japanese riichi/dora majan variant includes a dead wall with a 4-tile kong box. And that variant is much more recent, by decades, than the classic Chinese rules of the twenties. And there is no dead wall in MCR, which is much more recent.
Curious, I also decided to check Millington (1993) to see if he describes the dead wall. He does, and that begs the question, does Millington claim that the dead wall is more "authentic" than the omission of the dead wall? In a quick perusal to refresh my memory of Millington's claims, what I find is that he merely says that his version of the various classical rules is "most perfect, philosophically considered" -- "the most logical and internally consistent."
So that's the best answer I can give you.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 24, 2017
It's virtually impossible to purchase a mah-jongg set in retail stores
>From: Clive and Margie C
>Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 1:49 AM
>Subject: mahjong set
>Good morning I have become very interested in the game Mahjong and along with 10 friends play weekly in a small coastal town in South Africa. ( I am told it is the absolute basic game-but am loving it)
>I have found it virtually impossible to purchase a Mahjong set in this country and am travelling to Auckland New Zealand in December for 6 weeks. I am hoping to purchase a set there.
>I did come across one in Durban South Africa yesterday in a China Mall but unfortunately it did not have the numerical numbers on the tiles. (the only 1 they had)
>Was hoping you would be able to inform me of an outlet in New Zealand.
>Much appreciated
>Margie C
Good morning, Margie!
Unfortunately, the fact is that with some notable exceptions*, it's practically impossible for anyone anywhere to find a selection of Westernized mah-jongg sets in retail stores. Even here in the US, when people ask where to go shopping for sets, I tell them to go online, and have the set mailed to you. In most parts of the world, mah-jongg sets are not in high enough demand to justify the retail inventory cost. The Roaring Twenties were almost a hundred years ago. Back then, mah-jongg was a huge fad. Nowadays, it's hardly even a minuscule blip on the radar.
* Those exceptions being primarily large cities with Chinatown districts.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 22, 2017
MUST I first draw from the wall before redeeming jokers? (FAQ 19-M)
>From: Tami W
>Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:46 PM
>Subject: Long MJ question
>I think I know the answer but just don’t like it!
>A tile has been discarded, it is MY turn AND I can Mah Jong with it IF I can first exchange two of the tiles on my rack for two jokers – unbelievable but it really happened that I could capture two jokers from others. Is this possible or MUST I first draw from the stack before trading for jokers? To make matters worse, this tile was the last one available!
>Tami W
Hi, Tami!
The question you have asked has been asked many times before. It's a Frequently Asked Question (an "FAQ"). I have written answers to all the most-frequently-asked questions. In regards to your question:
Please read FAQ 19-M.
You can link to the FAQs above left.
After you've landed at the
FAQ 19
page, please bookmark it so you can easily return to it anytime you have a mah-jongg question. On the FAQ 19 page, you can click a link in the index to jump to your answer, or search the page for keywords.
Answers to all of the most frequently-asked questions about
American (NMJL)
mah-jongg are found in
FAQ 19.
Please always check the FAQs first, before asking me a question. Thanks!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 21, 2017
After the first Charleston
>From: TamiW
>Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 7:14 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>Second Charleston: Does all action come to a stop after first charleston and then agree (or not) to second. Or can one person quickly pass tiles on and collect/rack from person to her right and say “sorry too late, I’ve racked” without ever discussing it?
Hi, Tami! You wrote:
Does all action come to a stop after first charleston
No, that hardly ever happens, except when all are beginners and uncertain if it's okay to start the second dance or not.
and then agree (or not) to second.
It's nice if that happens.
Or can one person quickly pass tiles on and collect/rack from person to her right and say “sorry too late, I’ve racked” without ever discussing it?
That happens a lot, unfortunately. Especially when the group is accustomed to just always having 2 dances*, or when that one person is accustomed to a very fast group, or when that one person is sick and tired of another player constantly stopping the Charleston**.
*I have gotten emails from players whose groups have a "never stop the dance" rule.
**I have gotten many emails from players who complain about a player who constantly stops the dance.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 20, 2017
Beginner questions about last year's card
>From: Barbara R
>Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 6:34 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>We are a group of seniors who recently began playing mahjong. We are still using the 2016 card. Here is our question: In the eleven hands, can you do 6 and 5? Do you have to do the suits as shown? For example, could you do dots for 3’s and bams for 8’s and cracks for 1’s?
>Thank you for your help. Barbara
Hi, Barbara!
FYI, you can see the FAQs for the 2016 card at http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq/2016.html.
You asked...
In the eleven hands, can you do 6 and 5?
Long answer: The League's intent is that every player must play from the same exact list of hands - that's the entire purpose for printing the card. This intent would be thwarted if people start imagining extensions of the printed list, perceiving patterns and extending them to other patterns not printed on the card. The whole strategy of the game is in knowing or guessing what hands other players might be making from the printed list.
Short answer: no, you can't.
Do you have to do the suits as shown?
That question makes no sense. The card does not specify any suit. Yes, there are colors, but colors do not dictate suit. Just imagine that the colors on the card are black, orange, and purple. Read on...
For example, could you do dots for 3’s and bams for 8’s and cracks for 1’s?
Read FAQ 19-BY and FAQ 19-J. You can link to the FAQs above left.
On the FAQ 19 page, you can click a link in the index to jump to your answer, or search the page for keywords.
After you've landed at the
FAQ 19
page, please bookmark it so you can easily return to it anytime you have a mah-jongg question. Answers to all of the most frequently-asked questions about
American (NMJL)
mah-jongg are found in
FAQ 19.
Please always check the FAQs first, before asking me a question. Thanks!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 19, 2017
Playing Tenhou in English
>From: Graeme H
>Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 6:05 PM
>Subject: Tenhou in English Chrome and Firefox add-ons
>Hi there,
>Just thought that you'd like to know that there are now add-ons for the Chrome and Firefox browsers that let you play Tenhou in English via the Tenhou HMTL5 web version.
>The one for Firefox https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tenhou-english/
>And here for Chrome https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/tenhou-english-ui/cbomnmkpjmleifejmnjhfnfnpiileiin
>They seem to work perfectly.
>You probably know about them already, but I just thought I'd drop you a line in the off-chance you didn't. I know it's a frequent bug bear to non Japanese speakers who want to play online.
>Thank you for the information on your website, along with your book, it has helped me a lot.
>Kind regards,
>Graeme H
>Scotland
Very nice, Graeme! Thanks for sharing the info - I'll add it to the Tenhou listing in FAQ 5. Scratch that, I'll add a Tenhou listing in FAQ 5 with that information included!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 19, 2017
David P's flowers (was "Is my set of any value")
>From: heaton.ray
>Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:11 PM
>Subject: David P's set.
>Hi Tom,
>I thought David P (Nov 12th and 13th) may be interested in knowing a bit more about the flower tiles in his set; which as you suggest are exquisitely carved.
>
>The flowers have a couple of phrases that I don't see too often on mahjong tiles, one of which is my favourite found on tiles. The phrases refer to feminine beauty, and originate from stories of the four most beautiful woman in Chinese folklore, Diaochan, Yang Yuhuan, Xi Shi and Wang Zhaojun.
>
>One phrase is 閉月羞花, bìyuè-xiūhuā, hiding the moon, shaming the flowers.
>
>
>In the Han Dynasty, Wang Yun had a singer (or more likely, concubine) Diaochan. One night Diaochan goes in to the garden and sings to the full moon; but the moon quickly hides itself behind clouds. Wang Yun sees this and says that Diaochan is more beautiful than the moon, she "outshines the moon".
>
>In the Tang Dynasty, Yang Yuhuan was taken as the imperial concubine by the Emperor because of her great beauty. On arrival at the palace and before she saw the emperor, Yang Yuhuan went in to the gardens; as she looked at or touched the flowers they would immediately close up. Her maids of honour said this happened because the flowers were less beautiful than Yang, and so the flowers hid themselves in shame.
>
>The othe phrase (and my favourite) is 沉魚落雁, chényú luòyàn, to make fish sink and wild geese alight.
>
>Xi Shi lived during the Spring and Autum period. One day, she and a group of her friends went to a nearby river to wash yarn. The water was so clear that they could see shoals of fish swimming in the water. The fish, too, could see the girls very clearly. The fish were so overwhelmed by the unparalleled beauty of Xi Shi, they forgot to swim and sank to the bottom of the river.
>
>Wang Zhaojun was another beautiful maiden who lived during the Han dynasty. Wang Zhaojun was sent as a gift to the king of an enemy country to pacify any desire for conflict. On her way to the distant north country, a flock of wild geese flying above her were so overcome by her beauty that they forgot to flap their wings and fell heavily to the ground.
>
>The phrases are used together, if a girl's beauty is overwhelming, she is said to have features that can make fish sink and birds alight, and looks that can outshine the moon and put the flowers to shame.
>Ray
Charming! Thanks, Ray!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Creator of
the weekly Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated!
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 17, 2017
Derivation of Japanese terms
>From: Peter Y
>Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 11:44 PM
>Subject: Question about Riichi
>Hello, Mr. Sloper,
>could you please tell, how exactly the "dora" term translates from Japanese? I know what it means, but what are its origins? Was it derived from "door" somehow? And I also found a term for dora indicator - "mekuripai" (one that opens in the dead wall). Do you know how it translates as well? Thank you very much.
>With best regards,
>Peter
Hi, Peter!
Interesting questions:
could you please tell, how exactly the "dora" term translates from Japanese? I know what it means, but what are its origins?
I can only guess that it's short for the English word "dragon" (which the Japanese would pronounce "doragon"). Everybody knows mah-jongg is from China, and Chinese dragons are an appealing part of Chinese mythology - so all non-Chinese forms of mah-jongg use the term "dragon" in one way or another. In Taiwanese mah-jongg, a "dragon" is what's called a "snake" in Western mah-jongg (1 through 9 in any suit). In western forms of mah-jongg, the Three Scholars are called "dragon tiles." So the Japanese also have a dragon.
That's my guess, anyway.
And I also found a term for dora indicator - "mekuripai" (one that opens in the dead wall). Do you know how it translates as well?
I had never heard the term before you brought it up. I looked it up - the verb mekuru means to "roll up" so mekuripai means "rolled-up tile" or "flipped over tile."
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Creator of
the weekly Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated!
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 15, 2017
If a player has not racked a tile and just laid it down on the table
>From: Sharon W
>Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 5:56 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>If a player has not racked a tile and just laid it down on the table, can the next player go back to the previous players tile that she missed calling for and call it?
>Sharon W
Hi, Sharon!
Welcome to my website. You're asking about the "window of opportunity" to claim a discard. Read column 458,
column 639,
FAQ 19A, and
FAQ 19C.
Any one of those will probably answer your question well enough, but if you read them all, the answer should be crystal clear.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 14, 2017
Is my set of any value, part 2
>From: David P
>Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 10:15 PM
>Subject: Re: Thank you for your time is my set of any value or was it just a fun thought to think so?
>Thank you for getting back with me I guess a more direct question would be if I was trying to sell my set would you be able to tell me what a fare price would be based on the pictures and info I sent? I don't want to over price it and have it sitting around for years yet I don't want to give it away either.
>Thank you and I pray you have a blessed day!
>David Perry
Good morning, David. You didn't provide a picture of the box, and you didn't couch the condition of the components in collectors/appraisers terminology, as per FAQ 7H. So I'm shooting in the dark here.
Those slide-top box sets' tiles are usually smaller than the tiles of the drawer-box tiles. But you say your tiles measure 1 3/16” H x 13/16” W x ½ D, which is closer to regular size.
You didn't say if the slide-top fits properly on the box, so I have to assume that it does. The bottom of the box is cracked, so I'm shooting in the dark and calling the box "Fair to Good." Since I can't see the quality of the paint? carving? on the box top, I have to go with "Fair" so as not to overvalue the set.
Your tiles have Haversian System, and a 7C is smudged and an S is missing paint - I see smaller smudges or dirt on several other tiles. The condition of your tiles is also "Fair to Good," perhaps closer to "Fair." But there are desirable characteristics of your tiles: the craks' upper markings are green instead of black, and the flowers are very attractively carved.
The set has no dice, sticks, chips, or paper materials. With no photo, I cannot see how the tiles fit into the box, to see if there is even room for those things. Those things might be missing, or they might never have been included in the first place. I can't tell. Shooting in the dark, I'm saying those things are missing, which reduces the value.
Slide-top sets are generally not as valuable as drawer sets.
I'm guessing it might be worth $80-90.
May the tiles be with you sold.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 14, 2017
Charleston missteps with three left feet
>From: Courtenay M
>Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2017 9:33 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is: three players we are at second left when east discovers she has 15 tiles instead of 14. another player decides to solve the problem by reaching over and taking two tiles off of east’s rack. East says you can’t do that. If I have too many tiles I am dead so there fore the other two players should continue to play. I thought there was a rule you never touch tiles on another players rack. So what to do since the the player who took the tiles off of easts rack is mad and wants to continue play with out calling east dead. East said lets just throw in and start over. Other player didn’t like that either and got angry and decided to pack up and go home. This happens frequently when we play someone winds up with too many tiles They don’t want to be declared dead so the group usually just lets them throw down the extra tile
Hi, Courtenay! Sorry I took so long to reply. I took a weekend off from emails. Your email touches on several points...
we are at second left when east discovers she has 15 tiles instead of 14. ... East said lets just throw in and start over.
East has a copy of the official rulebook, does she? Because she's basically quoting rule 9 on page 18. Good for her! In my opinion, EVERY player should own (and read) the official rulebook.
This is the League's official rulebook.
It was revised in 2013. Every table
should have an up-to-date copy!
another player decides to solve the problem by reaching over and taking two tiles off of east’s rack.
You should show her FAQ 19-CF. (You can link to the FAQs above left).
East says you can’t do that. ... I thought there was a rule you never touch tiles on another players rack.
Actually, there is no printed rule that says that. It's a question of etiquette, not rules.
If I have too many tiles I am dead so [therefore] the other two players should continue to play.
Nobody goes dead during the Charleston - where's the fun in that?? What she said before (rule 9 on page 18).
So what to do since the the player who took the tiles off of easts rack is mad and wants to continue play with out calling east dead. East said lets just throw in and start over. Other player didn’t like that either and got angry and decided to pack up and go home. This happens frequently
The fix for this is simple: everybody needs to READ THE RULES. Your players are confused about what is a rule and what is an opinion - they need to all understand what the rules are, and what constitutes mere etiquette or strategy. The three are separate, and should not be confused.
when we play someone winds up with too many tiles
This is probably caused by a poor understanding of how the rules say the deal is supposed to happen - and/or a confused Charleston dance. It's totally common for players to get confused in the complicated Charleston dance. The best solution for that is to verbally (and clearly) announce what pass you are making, at the time you place your three tiles. "First right." "Across." "First left." "Second left." "Second across." "Last right." If everybody announces their passes, confusion is reduced. I love confusion reduction! And to complicate things even more, you are trying to orchestrate a made-up 3-person Charleston, which means people are even more likely to screw something up. See column 532.
They don’t want to be declared dead so the group usually just lets them throw down the extra tile
Read FAQ 14. You can link to the FAQs above left.
I hope it goes better going forward! May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 13, 2017
Column 683
>From: Joni D
>Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 4:48 AM
>Subject: Column #683
>Hi Tom - learning a lot from your column.
>I have a question on Hand#6 - I see potential 369 #2. So 9D & 3C are hot.
>Please let me know if I am seeing things. My assumption is that the exposure is not in hand order of the card.
>Thanks, JoniD
Hi, Joni!
Let's see, column 683... July 23. Hand number 6, a kong of sixes in one suit and a pung of nines in another suit. You say 369 #2? No, the nines have to be a kong - not a pung. And yes, the exposures are not in card order. It is not advisable to put exposures atop the rack in card order. I always put them up in chronological order - as per FAQ 19-Z. Thanks for writing!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 13, 2017
Is my set of any value?
>From: David P
>Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 7:15 AM
>Subject: Thank you for your time is my set of any value or was it just a fun thought to think so?
>1. Write a factual detailed list
>Wooden Box with 3 chambers inside bottom of the box is stamped “VKS 468”and it has a slide on lid with 2 Chinese letters and the words “Mait Jongg” it is dovetailed corners and has a crack on the bottom of the box.
>2. IMPORTANT: Describe the condition of all the components of the set.
>#5 Dots tiles look somewhat “grainy”
>One of the #3 Bams has a chip / defect in the top left corner of the bone
>One of the #7 Cracks has poor paint
>One of the #S winds is missing most of its paint
>One of the #7 Bams is missing paint on the 7
>#5 & #6 Bams look somewhat “grainy”
>3. What are the tiles made of ?
>They are made of bone and bamboo
>4. Describe what you know about when the set was made or purchased, if you know. Describe the history of the set to the best of your knowledge
>I came across the set at a Good Will Store in November of 2017 what caught my eye was the tightness of the dovetailed tiles I then noticed that the set looked old and I started doing research on the set and that is all I know
>5. What are the dimensions of the tiles?
>1 3/16” H x 13/16” W x ½ D the bone is 5/16” from top of tile to bottom of the dovetail
>6. How many tiles are there in the set?
>36 Dots
>36 Bams
>36 Cracks
>16 Winds
>8 Dragons
>8 Flowers
>8 Blanks
>0 Jokers
>Total of “148”
>Thank you and I pray you have a blessed day!
>David P
Hi, David! Sorry for the delayed response. I took the weekend off from emails. Your only question is a yes/no question:
is my set of any value[?]
Yes.
You should read column 610, David.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 13, 2017
Can I redeem a joker from a dead player's rack?
>From: Betty D
>Sent: Monday, November 6, 2017 5:30 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is: After calling a player’s hand dead is it allowed to take the jokers used for earlier exposures or are they also classified as dead?
>Thanks, Betty
Hi, Betty!
Welcome to my website! The question you have asked has been asked many times before. It's a Frequently Asked Question (an "FAQ"). I have written answers to all the most-frequently-asked questions. In regards to your question:
Please read FAQ 19-P.
You can link to the FAQs above left.
After you've landed at the
FAQ 19
page, please bookmark it so you can easily return to it anytime you have a mah-jongg question. On the FAQ 19 page, you can click a link in the index to jump to your answer, or search the page for keywords.
Answers to all of the most frequently-asked questions about
American (NMJL)
mah-jongg are found in
FAQ 19.
Please always check the FAQs first, before asking me a question. Thanks!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 6, 2017
Bakelite vs. catalin
>From: Jacqueline M
>Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2017 10:49 PM
>Subject: Color of Bakelite tiles
>I have 2 Mah Jong sets. One is Bakelite, I think, and the color of the tiles is a darker orange like butterscotch. Do the tiles darken naturally over time? Because of the dark color, is this set older or has it just been exposed to light more? This set is also very smooth. It is in a flat case with 2 trays, alligator skin like covering and velvet inside. The racks are also Bakelite, wood look with chips and pins on the end.
>
>The other is a Cardinal set made of Catalan. I think it is younger. The tiles are lighter in color. It also has a few minor blemishes if I look closely. It also was in a flat case and has varied colors of the racks with chips and pins on the end.
>
>So, is the color indicative of age or care or use? How does the color effect the value? Is Bakelite more durable than Catalan? Does one material color more than the other? Will the continue to Age? Should they be stored in the box to prevent further coloration?
>Thank you for you help
>Jacque' M
Good morning, Jacque'!
I've been told that tiles are catalin and racks are Bakelite because Bakelite is by nature quite dark. But take a look at FAQ 7c3; the two are similar plastics, possibly with different additives ("fillers").
Tiles can darken with age and handling, but there's no precise understanding of how that works. As for value, what's best is tiles that can't be told from one another when stacked in a wall (if some tiles are easily distinguished from one another, that can decrease the value of the set). Sorry that I can't answer all your questions. I assume you've read FAQ 7C. You can link to FAQ 7C and FAQ 7c3 above left.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 6, 2017
game with mixed chows, part 2
>From: kerrie j
>Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 3:29 AM
>Subject: Re: Mahjong game
>Thanks Tom,
>I would just like to combine our hand choices with a mixed chow and winds hand. Is it in one of your books and what is it called
>Cheers kerrie
>Kerrie
Kerrie,
You're asking me to scour through fourteen books and six websites, to find a hand that might or might not exist. I don't want to!
Just call it "Windy Blossom," why don't you? Different authors give different names to the same hand - and use the same name to describe different hands. And people make up their own hands all the time (read FAQ 14). If you want to look at the six websites, see FAQ 4b. You can link to the Frequently Asked Questions above left.
May the tiles be with you. Cheers!
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 3, 2017
game with mixed chows and a pung and pair of winds
>From: kerrie j
>Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 11:16 PM
>Subject: Mahjong game
>Hi Tom,
>Do you know of a game with mixed chows and a pung and pair of winds.
>Similar to apple blossom
>Cheers Kerrie from australia
>Kerrie
G'day, Kerrie!
I assume when you say "game" you don't mean "set of rules" but rather "hand." And since you're from Australia, I further assume you're asking about a hand in the
Western/British/Australian rules, like the question from Anne M earlier this week, who asked
about Little Robert and Gertie's Garter.
Anne M's group was playing from one of the Thompson & Maloney companion books (which I found out only after searching fruitlessly through my large collection of mah-jongg books on Western rules, using Google to search the Web, and asking Anne to email me back again). I don't want to repeat that lengthy search based on my poor understanding of what you're looking for.
So I looked in Mah Jong, Anyone? and didn't find this Apple Blossom hand, and then went straight back to T&M. I looked in the same book Anne M was using, and I found your Apple Blossom hand there. "Mixed chows," with dragons.
Is this what you're asking about? A hand with "mixed chows," but with a pung and a pair of winds? ...
And why are you asking, and why do you need to know? What is it you REALLY want to know? Are you in Anne's group, and you want to know if your group will recognize such a hand? Would it help you if another list of Western/British/Australian hands (in a book by a different author, or on some website) includes such a hand? Or does the hand have to be in the same book your group uses? If you are in Anne's group, then in my opinion you ought to use hands that are listed in the book your group is using.
For all I know, the group would recognize any Western/British/Australian hand, from any book or website, as long as you can point to it. The problem with such a practice is that different books/websites may use different values for similar hands (overvaluing or undervaluing comparable hands). Since dragons are rarer than winds, for instance, an Apple Blossom variant with winds instead of dragons would be easier - thus should be valued lower.
If you are asking me to see if I can find your Mixed Chows with Winds hand in Thompson & Maloney's The Mah Jong Player's Companion, then I decline. If you play using that book, you should study it so you can play from it - and so you can find hands in it when challenged by your opponents.
May the tiles be with you. And cheers back atcha!
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
November 2, 2017
The probability and difficulty, part 2
>From: Jane S
>Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:02 AM
>Subject: Re: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply
You're welcome, Jane.
The probability and difficulty of different hands
>From: Jane S
>Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 7:16 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>I am trying to find information on the probability of different hands and the difficulty of achieving each. Is there anything that exists that you know of?
>American
>Thanks
Good morning, Jane.
As I mentioned in FAQ 19-CI, any player who calculates the probabilities of the hands of the National Mah Jongg League card would have to recalculate them every year, since the card changes every year, and the combinatorics would be different with each card. That's a daunting amount of mathematical work, and your assumption that some player of American mah-jongg is calculating that every year, and publishing it online, is surely fallacious.
But let's talk generally, without mathematical analysis, about difficulty of hands on the yearly NMJL card. The factors affecting difficulty are:
Pairs (and singles)
Concealment
Value
Tile rarity
Pairs - it should be obvious that pairs are harder to make than pungs or kongs, since jokers cannot be used and a pair cannot be made from a discard except for mah-jongg. That said, a four-pungs-and-one-pair hand is easy to make (which is why the League always marks those hands C for Concealed). Count the pairs in the hand; the more pairs, the harder the hand is. Kongs are a little more difficult than pungs, and quints are a bit more difficult than kongs. And singles are less difficult than pairs.
Concealment - it is obvious that Concealed hands are a bit harder to make than eXposed hands (so much so that when I was speaking to 156 players at Merage JCC a couple weeks ago, a significant portion of them raised their hand when I asked how many avoid those hands). The easiest Concealed hands are the four-pungs-and-one-pair hands. The hardest Concealed hands are the S&P hands.
Value - it should be obvious that the League values the hands according to difficulty (roughly speaking). Still, not all 25¢ hands are equally easy; some have no pairs, some have two pairs. And some have a "201x" (four singles, and one of them rare) in them. In general, it's safe to say that the higher the value is, the greater the difficulty.
Rarity - of course, there are four of each tile, except for the flowers and jokers, meaning none of them is inherently rarer than another... but consider how they're used on the card. Suit tiles are used flexibly - that is to say, if a hand requires a two, you can use any two, and there are twelve possible twos to choose from. There are just 5 tiles that are called for inflexibly by the card: E, S, W, N, and soap. In most cases, when you see E on the card, that means the only tile you can use is E - and there are just four of those. Same for zero. But when you see D on the card, there are twelve possible Ds to choose from. The least rare tiles are, of course, flowers and jokers - not that they don't seem rare when you need a flower pair or just one more joker!
I hope the above is helpful, because frankly, my dear, there just ain't any hard number calculations on probabilities, statistics, or combinatorics about American mah-jongg out there.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
October 31, 2017
Can you recommend a mahjong set please
>From: Lesley W
>Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 3:45 PM
>Subject: Can you recommend a mahjong set please
>Thank you, Lesley
I'm sorry, Lesley, but I don't know how to help you with this request. I don't know what kind of mah-jongg you play, whether you and your group can read Chinese or not, or what your tastes are (maybe you want a new plastic set? maybe you want a "vintage" set? what's your favorite color? mine is yellow). I haven't bought a mah-jongg set in years, because I already have too many, so I haven't sampled recent selections. I recommend you click the "FAQ 4a Selected Links" link, above left. Then, when you land on the FAQ 4a page, click "Mah-Jongg Sets & Goods" to jump down to "Commercial Vendors and Suppliers." Try clicking on several of the links and check out their wares. If it's all too confusing for you, choose one vendor whose phone number you can find, and telephone them, and plead for mercy. They should be happy to help you choose a set. Happy shopping!
May the tiles be with you (literally!).
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
October 30, 2017
How can you use a discard to form a special set? (part 2)
>From: anne m
>Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 2:56 AM
>Subject: Re: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>Hi Tom, thanks for your very detailed reply. I understand now. You ask about Little Robert, well it’s in the Mah Jong Players Companion by Thompson and Maloney and is described as a Chow in each suit, P/K + Pair in any suit. I don’t know if this version is similar to the T & M one you mentioned it has all the combinations illustrated but the description as to how to play, rules etc., are not particularly detailed. This is why we came unstuck when trying to pick up for Gertie’s Garter.
>Do you think we would be best to find the other book by them. As beginners we are struggling. I also hasten to add that we are all senior citizens! We all belong to the U3A in our area. University of the Third Age. We set up groups to socialise and to learn new skills. They can range from card games to astronomy, in this case Mah Jong. The couple who set ours up only play the ‘ordinary’ game but one of the group had played the more complicated form. So we decided to have a go. Unfortunately the lady who has played it did so over 20 years ago and she remembers little.
>If you can suggest anything that would help we would be very grateful.
>Many thanks
>Anne
Good morning, Anne! I'm glad you returned with the answer to my question.
You ask about Little Robert, well it’s in the Mah Jong Players Companion by Thompson and Maloney
Darn that Patricia and Betty - they have 3 books, and after I checked 2 of them, I didn't bother checking the 3rd.
and is described as a Chow in each suit, P/K + Pair in any suit.
Then it's just a simple chows/pungs/pair hand, and I don't know why you mentioned it in the context of your question about how to claim a discard to complete a set.
I don’t know if this version is similar to the T & M one you mentioned it has all the combinations illustrated but the description as to how to play, rules etc., are not particularly detailed. ... Do you think we would be best to find the other book by them. As beginners we are struggling.
Yes, you need the book I showed in yesterday's reply. That one gives details about how to play. Their other two books do not (they are just companion books).
I also hasten to add that we are all senior citizens!
So am I. I don't see how that information changes anything.
We all belong to the U3A in our area.
I heard from another U3A mah-jongg player, last August. David of Folkestone asked about a "Shocking house rule." If you're curious to read that 2-part exchange, you can scroll down to read it (or search for the term "U3A" or "Strange Pung").
The couple who set ours up only play the ‘ordinary’ game
I don't know which one that is. There are many mah-jongg variants. You can see a list in FAQ 2B.
but one of the group had played the more complicated form.
Yes, British/Australian rules are complicated in their own way.
So we decided to have a go.
When I teach absolute beginners, I always start them off with simplified rules to make sure they have the basics down, before getting into the specific complications of their chosen variant.
Unfortunately the lady who has played it did so over 20 years ago and she remembers little.
Not unusual. Not all players are good teachers.
If you can suggest anything that would help we would be very grateful.
All players in your group should purchase the same book, and read it (including your player who's forgotten how to play). Since you're already using a T&M companion book, get The Game of Mah Jong Illustrated. It's readily available at the usual online booksellers. And bookmark my FAQ 20, where all the frequently asked questions about un-American mah-jongg are answered.
Cheers! May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
October 30, 2017
What if the winner picked up the wrong discard by mistake, part 5
>From: Belinda - Frontier
>Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 4:54 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>Picking up the wrong discard
>In your retraction you quoted the recent newsletter as follows:
>2017 (Larry Unger):
>Q: When is a player committed to take a discarded tile from the table?
>A: You are committed to a call when you have either exposed tiles from your hand, or placed the called tile on top of your rack.
>In Larry's answer he states "placed the called tile on top of your rack". I believe that the critical term is "called tile". If someone picks up the wrong tile, s/he did not pick up the "called tile". Therefore I would think that this answer does not apply to someone who picked up the wrong tile. What do you think?
>Bee
Thanks, Bee, but I think I'll stick with my retraction. Yes, the wording of the 2017 rule is rather broad, but I'm satisfied that it covers Joan and Carla's situation. On another occasion, when a slightly different unanticipated event takes place, I might still re-interpret it. That's the way with broadly written rules; they're open to interpretation.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
October 29, 2017
What if the winner picked up the wrong discard by mistake, part 4
This is a retraction. I'm revisiting what I said to Carla C on Oct. 24th, and what I wrote in the Oct. 29th column (#691). I rechecked my sources on the "change of heart" rule as it applies to picking up a discard. My original interpretation was based on this ruling from a National Mah Jongg League newsletter:
2007 (Ruth Unger):
Once a tile has been called for exposure and the exposure is put on top of the rack, player may add to the exposure or take away from the exposure as long as player has not discarded...but...PLAYER CANNOT DECIDE THAT SHE DID NOT WANT THE TILE SHE CALLED FOR EXPOSURE< (sic) PUT THE DISCARD BACK ON THE TABLE, AND THE OTHER TILES [back] INTO HER RACK...A CALL FOR A TILE IS JUST LIKE A PICK FROM THE WALL, ONCE TAKEN...IT CANNOT BE PUT BACK.
That ruling refers to "exposure" - one could also loosely interpret this to include mah-jongg, but Ms. Unger did not specifically include mah-jongg in her ruling. I checked the most recent newsletter and found this:
2017 (Larry Unger):
Q: When is a player committed to take a discarded tile from the table?
A: You are committed to a call when you have either exposed tiles from your hand, or placed the called tile on top of your rack.
This is a wider-ranging statement, since it does not limit the rule to simple exposure. I was mistaken when I told Carla: "Unless I am mistaken (and I often am), there is no written rule that specifically says that a player must 'play with the tile she picked up,' including a mah-jongg declaration play." In addition, I was wrong when I wrote in column #691: "There is no written rule that specifically says that a player who picks up a wrong tile in the course of mah-jongg cannot rectify the error." The 2017 newsletter rule does indeed say that (albeit broadly rather than specifically).
Thus I'm retroactively striking out my incorrect statements. Carla was not incorrect in calling Joan dead for picking up the wrong tile. It was a bit strict (and I still would let Joan have the win), but rules are rules.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
October 29, 2017
How can you use a discard to form a special set?
>From: anne m
>Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 5:11 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>Hi my friends and I are just learning and we would like to know please: if you are trying to make a specific ‘set’ e.g Gertie garter, or little Robert, how do pick up from the discarded tiles. We have always played the original sort where you declare a Pung or chow, but how to you pick up when going for the a complete ‘set’?
>Hope you understand what I’m asking, difficult to explain. My mah-jongg question or comment is: Thank you Anne M
Hi, Anne!
I understand your question perfectly, but I'm confused as to what book or website you are using as your rulebook. Since you mentioned Gertie's Garter, I assume you are playing a Western-style ruleset (Australian or British or Wright-Patterson). I dug through my books to find the two hands you mentioned. It was easy to find Gertie's Garter, which is described as either "one through seven in one suit and one through seven in a second suit" or "knitted pairs of one through seven, in two suits only."
Based on your question, I assume your rulebook uses the former description. Since you say you "have always played the original sort where you declare a Pung or chow," I assume that you already know that you can never claim a discard to expose a pair (except for mah-jongg). So I assume your question is based on how one can claim a discard to expose a run of seven.
You can't.
The only sets you may expose from a discard are chows*, pungs*, and kongs. And of course you can go mah-jongg on a discard, no matter how the discarded tile is used in your hand.
*(A chow is a run of three sequential numbers in one suit; a pung is three identical tiles.)
So now I've answered your question, but your email raises a huge question for ME! You mentioned "Little Robert" in the context of your question, so I tried to find Little Robert in my library of books. In looking for Little Robert, I checked all these books (I just mention author names because titles always sound too similar):
Max Robertson
Wright-Patterson
Dieter Kohnen
K. J. Carkner
David Pritchard (Teach Yourself)
Headley & Seeley (BMJA)
Thompson & Maloney
Jelte Rep
Strauser & Evans (& Sloper) - finally it occurred to me to check this one too. Although I'm listed as a co-author, I really just edited it and added a chapter. No Little Robert.
"Little Robert" was not listed in any of those books. Then I decided to go online and use Google. I found some mentions:
I found "Little Robert" on "smoothguide," a UK website where it says "All the information collected was from players of the game. Mostly written on scraps of paper, or typed with carbon copies..." Smoothguide describes Little Robert as: "Four chows in one suit, pair of any suit." But that doesn't seem to fit with what you are asking, Anne. So I kept looking.
I found a 1994 list of hands including "Big Robert" on rec.games.board - a newsgroup I never frequented back when I was active on the rec.games.mahjong group. No Little Robert.
An Australian player mentioned Little Robert in 2013 on this board (http://www.sloperama.com/majexchange/bulletinbd-archive25.htm) but without a description.
And I found a question about it from 2009 on this board (http://www.sloperama.com/majexchange/bulletinbd-archive9.htm). Guess what? I searched for "Little Robert" to no avail eight years ago already! Reading those 2013 and 2009 questions on this board, I realized that when I went through the books I totally forgot to check Thomas Glass and Nancy McKeithan. Not that it would have mattered.
In "Hillsboro Mahjong" ( a 2012 online booklet by Denny Barlow, referencing Max Robertson) I found "Chow in each suit, Pung and pair in different suits." Again, I don't see how that fits with what you are asking. And I'm not sure where "Hillsboro" is, but it might be in the Bahamas.
On spela.online/mahjong-specialhander/ I found "Tre 'blandade chower' ( t ex bambu 1, tecken 2, och cirkel 3), ett par i vindar och en pong i drakar eller tvärtom."
Sounded to me like knitted chows. I use Google Chrome, and made the browser translate it for me:
"Three "mixed chowers" (eg bamboo 1, characters 2, and circle 3), a pair of winds and a pong in dragons or vice versa."
Finally (silly me) I searched the Mah-Jongg folder here on my computer. I found it in two files a player in Freeport, the Grand Bahamas, sent to me in 2009: "Little Robert: Chow, 1 each suit - 1 P and 1pr (no W or D) ½."
So we have these varying definitions of "Little Robert":
- Four chows in one suit, pair of any suit. (Smoothguide, UK)
- Chow in each suit, Pung and pair in different suits. (Hillsboro - Bahamas? Oregon USA?)
- Three mixed chows, a pair of winds and a pong in dragons or vice versa. (spela.online, Sweden)
- Chow, 1 each suit - 1 P and 1pr (no W or D) (Freeport, Grand Bahamas)
Anne, since you are not asking about using a discard to expose a chow, you must be asking about "knitted" or "mixed" chows. And as I already explained above, you can claim a discard only for a normal chow, a normal pung, a kong, or for mah-jongg. But to get to MY question for YOU, Anne:
What book or website are you using for your guide to this style of mah-jongg? Where on earth did you find "Little Robert" described? And how does your guide describe Little Robert? Also, I would love to see your guide, so I can see if it is a suitable guide for you. I suspect it is not suitable (since it does not mention what discards may be used for). I recommend you get either Thompson & Maloney's "The Game of Mah Jong Illustrated," or the Strauser & Evens (& Sloper) book, "Mah Jong, Anyone?" Neither book describes Little Robert, but you can always adopt any special hands you want (see FAQ 14, above left).
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
October 29, 2017
A discard was misnamed, part 3
>From: "judyr
>Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 9:58 PM
>Subject: Re: Mahj Jongg question....
>Tom, I think you misread my account. It was a tournament. Someone threw a flower, but said white dragon. Another individual called mahj on the white dragon....but...it was a flower! The judges awarded the mahj anyway. Meaning the judges counted the flower as a white dragon!! Reading the rule on the back of the card makes this incorrect. The tile discarded must be identified correctly for there to be a mahj or an exposure. Right?
Good morning, Judy.
Tom, I think you misread my account. It was a tournament. Someone threw a flower, but said white dragon.
Another individual called mahj on the white dragon....but...it was a flower!
Yes. You were clear on this in your first email. Sorry about my first response, in which I hadn't noticed that this was a tournament.
The judges awarded the mahj anyway. Meaning the judges counted the flower as a white dragon!!
No. It means the judges awarded mah-jongg based on what the discarder said.
The judges did this because in the circumstance of a misnamed ("miscalled") discard for mah-jongg, this is what the rule says.
Reading the rule on the back of the card makes this incorrect.
You're talking about only the first two sentences: "MISCALLED TILE: A tile cannot be claimed until correctly named. Correctly named tile may then be called for an Exposure or Mah Jongg." I think you didn't read the third and fourth sentences of the paragraph on the card. (I will address the difference in meaning between those sentences; bear with me.)
The tile discarded must be identified correctly for there to be a mahj or an exposure. Right?
Read the third sentence: "HOWEVER, if Mah Jongg is called with the incorrectly named tile, the game ceases."
Let me paint two scenarios to illustrate the difference between the meaning of the first sentence and the second sentence.
I am waiting for a flower to complete my hand. Another player discards a flower (I can see that it's a flower) but she says "white." I cannot call it, because it has not been correctly named. But none of the other players is looking, and nobody realizes she misnamed the tile - and another player is reaching for the wall! What should I do? I should do what I always do when someone misnames a tile - I talk to her: "That's not a white dragon." When she says "flower," then I can say "mah-jongg."
That is the meaning of the first and second sentences. "MISCALLED TILE: A tile cannot be claimed until correctly named. Correctly named tile may then be called for an Exposure or Mah Jongg."
I am waiting for a white dragon to complete my hand. Another player discards a flower and names it "white," but I am not looking - only listening. I say "mah-jongg!" Oopsie! What's supposed to happen now? The rule says I win, even though what she discarded was really a flower. The rule says, "HOWEVER, if Mah Jongg is called with the incorrectly named tile, the game ceases. Miscaller pays claimant four times the value of the hand. Others do not pay." When you see "HOWEVER," that means the previous sentence is void if the "however" circumstance exists.
The judges ruled correctly.
The thing that caused the brouhaha was that two people were waiting for mah-jongg, one waiting for the named tile and one for the tile actually discarded. I'm curious whether the dissenters were unanimous in what they thought the judges should have done. I'll bet some were of one opinion, and others were of a second opinion. I'll bet there wasn't unanimity.
Did everyone think that the player who was waiting for the flower (the tile actually discarded) should have won, despite the third sentence? I highly doubt that it was unanimous (everyone in the tournament, not counting the judges and the player who wanted soap). I take it that's what you believe, and that there were others who agreed with you.
Or did everyone think both players (the flower winner and the soap winner) should have won? Having two players win is not supported by the American rules. I doubt there was a unanimous vote on this side.
It comes down to the fact that an error occurred. The misnamer deserved to be penalized for giving mah-jongg in the course of making an error. The player who wanted the named tile deserved the win, because that's what the rules say. The rule governing her claim follows the word "HOWEVER" on the card, meaning her claim takes precedence over the player who wanted the tile that was actually discarded.
The judges ruled correctly.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Creator of
the weekly Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated!
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
October 28, 2017
A discard was misnamed, part 2
Judy, I just now re-read the below, and found something I'd missed before when I first read your question. I hadn't noticed that this happened in a tournament. I have a couple of thoughts about that.
A tournament judge has to make a ruling on the spot, and in the case of American mah-jongg tournaments, there may or may not be a second or third judge to consult with. In international tournaments (Chinese or Japanese mah-jongg), it does sometimes happen that judges might rethink an earlier ruling (but it has to happen during the tournament, which in American mah-jongg is usually a one-day event). But in essence, a judge's ruling is what it is, and the players have to abide by it. It sounds like there was mass dissension at your event, and that's unusual and unfortunate.
Your judge ruled based on the rules given in the NMJL rulebook, on page 17 (rule 6) and restated on the back of the NMJL card. It sounds to me like the mass dissension at your event was from people who have not read the rulebook or the back of the card.
I don't know what the majority of dissenters at the tournament thought the judge should have done - in a tournament, wins are scored with points, rather than coins. Did your dissenters think the flower caller should have been given the win? Did nobody think that might be unfair to the player who heard "white" and needed white to win? Did your dissenters think both callers should have been awarded the win? Was there universal agreement on the preferred alternate ruling?
That would have required a deviation from the official rules, and an unusually difficult decision for a judge who was backed up by an existing printed rule from the National League.
Any ruling other than the printed ruling on the back of the card and in the rulebook would have been most unusual.
My apologies for not noticing before that you said this happened in a tournament. My answer would have been worded slightly differently if I hadn't been hasty in my reading of the question.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Creator of
the weekly Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated!
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
October 27, 2017 9:33 PM
A discard was misnamed, causing a problem. What now?
>From: "judyr
>Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 4:30 PM
>Subject: Mahj Jongg question....
>Major battle over this one! An individual threw a tile and said "white dragon" (it was really a flower) and another individual called mahj on the white dragon, that was really a flower! What happens? Another individual would have had mahj on the tile that was actually thrown which was a flower. It was a tournament and the individual was awarded mahj on the erroneous white dragon, that wasn't a white dragon at all, but a flower. I don't this is right.....I think the other individual that needed the flower for mahj should have been awarded mahj. What's right? Judy R
Hi, Judy.
It's a shame that your group got into a "major battle" over something that could have been settled very quickly and easily by simply having the official rulebook handy - or turning over the card and reading the rule on the back.
This is the League's official rulebook.
Every table should have a copy!
Every player should read the back of the NMJL card every year.
Many frequently asked questions are answered on the card.
And of course, you could also find the rule here on my website, in the Frequently Asked questions (link above left). You want FAQ 19-AY.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Creator of
the weekly Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated!
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
October 27, 2017
I live near you, part 2
>From: "mls88888
>Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 9:50 AM
>Subject: Re: Mahjong
>Will do. Thanks much!
You're welcome!
Can I call myself dead? (FAQ 19-AC) - Can a joker be redeemed from a dead player's rack? (FAQ 19-P)
>From: Rose V
>Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 6:10 AM
>Subject: 10-17-17 Question about dead hand
>Hi Tom,
>I am a beginner and this is what occurred: I had 3 exposures on my rack when I realized that I had only 12 tiles in my rack. I declared my hand dead. The question is: Can the other players take/replace the jokers in my my exposures that were called before I declared my hand dead? We have some area of disagreement so please help us solve this problem.
>Rosed V.
Hi, Rose! Welcome to my website! In addition to this Q&A board and my column, another thing available here on my site is the FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions). I have written answers to all the most-frequently-asked questions about American mah-jongg in FAQ 19. You can link to the FAQs above left.
You think you've asked one FAQ, but actually there's another FAQ contained in what you wrote:
I declared my hand dead.
But are you allowed to do that?? Read FAQ 19-AC
.
Can the other players take/replace the jokers in my exposures that were called before I declared my hand dead?
First you have to figure out when your hand went dead.
To have only 12 tiles in your hand when making an exposure, you must have (1) forgotten to take your last tile during the deal and discarded without first picking, or (2) twice discarded without picking. If #1 is what happened, then you've been dead the whole time but didn't know it. If #2 is what happened, then you've been dead since the first time you discarded without picking. If you don't know which one happened, then you should assume you've been dead the whole time. Then, read FAQ 19-P
- you'll find the answer to your question there (now that you know when you went dead).
SITE LINKS
Sloperama.com. I answer mah-jongg questions that are submitted by email only - telephoned questions are not welcome.
Once the whole hand is up, she declares mah-jongg. And because she completed the hand by means of joker redemption, it's regarded self-pick, and everyone pays her double (as per FAQ 19-AN)
I knew what Hop Toi was, but I was confused to see it in a score list that I assumed applied only to winners. Are you saying that whoever does a Hop Toi during the deal scores points, whether he or she wins or not?
In American mah-jongg, many players use the term "wall game" to mean a game that nobody wins (all the tiles from the wall were used up, and nobody made mah-jongg). And some players use a table rule in which players throw a coin into a kitty or pot or pischke, to be collected by the next winner.
The customary wording for this is "win by self-pick." You should change it. Your teacher's wording shouldn't be preserved as if the words came down from God - you should work to make the wording communicate concepts clearly instead.
It's customary, when using a set divisible by 8, for every player to have equal-length walls. The racks are 18 stacks long because the Chinese manufacturers set that standard before the National Mah Jongg League in NYC decided to mess with the number of tiles. Many American (NMJL) players share your group's dislike of the fact that rack length and wall length don't match up, and create an extra "tail" with all extra tiles. That tail gets used in the deal, creating not one Hop Toi opportunity but two.
You do need to specify situations that haven't happened to your group yet. Is the flower wall untouchable by anything other than flower replacements? If so, then "flower wall" is a highly appropriate name - but it should be exactly 8 tiles (4 stacks), even if less than 4 is rolled by the dealer (if dealer rolls 3, then break at 3 and also grab 1 stack from the South player's wall).
It is a rule that you must play with the tile you picked up.
I agree with the concept in general, but let's be clear on this. The only hard-and-fast rules from the National Mah Jongg League exist in writing, either in the official rulebook or in a yearly newsletter.
Q: What if three players go dead? Who pays the survivor?
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