The Mah Jongg Q&A Bulletin Board

But I couldn't find a shi3 that looks like the lower right radical of Geoff's fa1 OR the shu1 that looks like the lower right radical of the MandarinTools Fa1 (it looks kind of like a Chinese 9 sitting on a folding camp stool).

So I went on another site: http://us.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=radicals, and found the 9 on a stool under the 4-strokes list. Apparently this is radical 79. Had to dig pretty deep until I could find a pronunciation guide for it, or any Unicode for it. Under Yale and Jyutping systems, it's syu4 (not shu1) - couldn't find pinyin on mdbg.net [addendum: see 2nd paragraph following].

I looked in the Japanese dictionary and I see this character written in two ways: the MandarinTools way above, and also with just two radicals: Bo1 above a 4-stroke construct that doesn't exist as a standalone character or radical so I can't show it without scanning the image from the book since I don't know how else to find it.

Still trying to figure out what this shi3 is. On mdgb.net I discovered that pinyin shi3 can also be written as shǐ -- so that means that another way of writing pinyin shu1 is shū.

Through clicking around on that site, I found http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shi3 which lists a number of shi3's. The writing is really small there, so I had to zoom in 3 or 4 times to get a better look. But even that doesn't enable me to decipher this shi3 in Geoff's tile. Maybe you can point us to it, Michael.
Cheers, and may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 27, 2010

How old is it - part 3?

>From: Geoff
>Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 2:00:51 AM
>Subject: RE: Age of Set? 20's/30's or later?
>Hi Tom. Just to say thanks for the amazingly quick reply!
>i know it was one of those vague questions. But the info was all there!...(well almost)-the bams are straight.
>And thanks to Michael Stanwick for his input to...i'll keep checking back, and am going to see if i can find anything about the Green Dragon calligraphy on the net. (i'll keep you posted)
>Geoff

Cheers, Geoff.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 26, 2010

Two-handed tootsie

>From: Donna
>Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 3:13:45 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is: When playing American mahjongg Is it okay for a player to discard before she racks.
>This means she has two tiles (one in each hand) at the same time.
>To be clear, I am not talking about discarding the tile she just picked, here is the scenario: she picks a tile, discards another tile that she had (not the one she just picked) before she racks the tile she just picked.
>Kind of hard to explain in writing without actually showing you.....thanks

Hi Donna,
There is no written rule forbidding the use of two hands in American mah-jongg.
There is also no written rule against pickandrack, or the aggressive use of high-speed play that doesn't give other players time to call the current live discard.
Your explanation was perfectly clear, but I couldn't be sure if this two-handed maneuver was for speed or what. If she's not giving other players time to call the current live discard, then I think she's an aggressive (i.e. "not nice") player. But she's not violating a written rule.
As I wrote in my book, when it's your turn, it's best to pause a beat before picking and racking, in order to give others time to call the live discard. The NMJL even quoted me on that in their yearly bulletin last year! But there's no written rule forbidding aggressive behavior, if that's what she's exhibiting.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 2, 2010

How old is it, part 2?

>From: Michael Stanwick
>Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 2:12:26 PM
>Subject: Re: How Old is It?
>Hello Tom. With reference to your most recent bulletin board question 'How Old is It?', the case and set are most probably 1930's. The giveaway is the style of bird on the # 1 bamboo. The 'two feet on the ground' variety and its rather 'rigid' poster also indicate 1930's. I have seen quite a few of these rather standard bone/bamboo sets in these type of leather cases.
>The Japanese MJ Museum also reckons that the two feet variety of bird was an indication of Japanese origin of the tiles but I am not so sure. I think Shanghai or Hong Kong is a better bet.
>Regards
>Michael Stanwick

Awesome. Thanks, Michael.
Cheers!
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 25, 2010

How old is it?

>From: Geoff
>Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 11:41:58 AM
>Subject: Age of Set? 20's/30's or later?
>Dear Tom,
>Firstly i'd like to say what a fantastic site this is!! Using all your fab info, so far i think this set is either 20's or 30's. But i just cant get a definite date? I was hoping you could help? (appologies if i have included too many pics or too much info!) -i know that a picture tells a 1000 words, so sorry if i am writing stuff you can already see. (also the objects are on a cutting board with 1/2 inch squares)
>I was recently fortunate enough to find this set at a local Auction. i paid a total of £26 for it. I knew that it was bamboo and bone. so probably pre 1960.
>About the set:
>It comes in a cardboard case, with felt lining, and a doctors bag type clasp (now missing).
>The tiles are arranged in 4 trays and a seperate container for sticks, dice and blank tiles.
>There is a peice of card with the set for " "International" MAH-JONGG rules for points and scoring" on the front and "doubling table" on the back. The name at the bottom is H.P. Gibson & Sons. Ltd London E.C.1 but there is no instruction booklet.
>There are 148 tiles in total (136 basic+ 8 Flowers+ 4 spare Blanks) There are no jokers.
>Each tile measures 30mm long x 20mm wide x 12-14mm Deep (the bamboo side is curved) The bone part of the tile is 4mm, and 8mm bamboo, with a dovetail joint.
>There are 4 small dice with the set, each one has an indentation for the 1 spot, there is some pink of one of the 4 spots. (but none on the others) The set also contains 109 (and a half) scoring sticks, these are made of bone. The instruction included states that there are 116 counters. In the denominations of 500, 100, 10, 2. points.- however my sticks contain dots numbering 2(red), 4(1 red 3 black), 10 (r)and 12 (6r 6b). Different to arrangment described in the instructions.
>As for the details of the tiles themselves, i guess it would be easier to look at the photos, but the tiles seem to use the older style of characters: The eight dot tile is blue. The One Bam shows a Crane? with 3 dots on his tail. The white dragon is a plain tile. The Green dragon i am particularly interested in as this character seems to have the written slightly differently to any others i have looked at. (the downward strokes in the bottom left are very close together) Is this a regional difference, or the period in which is was produced? The One dot has a red centre, green middle and blue outer circle.
>Umm i think thats about it...
>Like i said before i hope i havent given you too much repetative information. Feel free to edit this down for the forum, or include any pic!! (hence the large flowers file) If for any reason this does turn out to be of some interest, i would be more than happy to let you have more pics of any of the tiles for your site!!
>Once again a fantastic site!
>Looking forward to your response!
>Geoff

Hello Geoff, you wrote:

however my sticks contain dots numbering 2(red), 4(1 red 3 black), 10 (r)and 12 (6r 6b). Different to arrangment described in the instructions.
That's not a big deal. The instructions may or may not have been original to the case, and even if it was, the spot combinations are not significant and can differ from the instructions. See FAQ 7d.

The Green dragon i am particularly interested in as this character seems to have the written slightly differently to any others i have looked at. (the downward strokes in the bottom left are very close together) Is this a regional difference, or the period in which is was produced?
I don't see anything particularly interesting about that, myself. I'm not an expert on minor variations in calligraphy and what those might augur.

Age of Set? 20's/30's or later?
The tiles look very 20's, but the case looks newer. I never saw any cases of that type associated with a 20's set, and it appears to be original to the tiles, so the set is surely newer than that. Another clue would be the tile size...

30mm long x 20mm wide x 12-14mm Deep
I've seen a lot of 30's sets that were much smaller, but those usually come in a wood slide-top box. The size you've given is more "standard" size (20mm is a little narrow, but close enough). So going by the box type and the tile size, the set could be thirties. Or it could be later. It might even be an artificially-aged set, but those don't usually come in that kind of case. Hard to say exactly. You might find more info on CHarli's site or on Jim May's site. There are links to both in FAQ 4a.

The One Bam shows a Crane?
No, peacock.

I think you got the set for a reasonable price, for what that's worth. Cheers,
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 25, 2010

Kudos

>From: Kime
>Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:28 PM
>Subject: Mahjong site
>Hey, Tom, the point of this email is to tell you that, as a person who devotes his life to this amazing game, I find your site to be a great resource. You manage to adress the American terminology, but introduce and encourage the original Japanese terms as well! You also take into account the original Chinese quite well. I wish I could have found a site like yours when I was beginning to play; I'll refrain from using the term "learning to play" since I learn a new thing about every day. Keep up the good work. Kudos.
>-xKime

Thanks, Kime. I appreciate all the kudos I can get! (^_^)
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 25, 2010

Don't you have to have at least one natural? (FAQ 19L)

>From: "dianne
>Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 9:27:08 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg rule
>Good Morning,
>Can you have a pung on kong with all Jokers? I have always thought one tile had to be actual. I played with a new group yesterday and one player exposed a kong of 4 Jokers. They could not come to a consensus on the correct ruling.
>Thanks for your help...
>Dianne

You have asked Frequently Asked Question #19L.
Please scroll up and look for the blue and yellow flashing arrow, emblazoned "READ 1ST," like this ). Find the link to FAQ #19 (it's marked with a red, white, and blue flashing arrow, emblazoned "AMERICAN," like this ) and click it.
After you've landed at the FAQ 19 page, please bookmark it so you can easily return to it anytime you have a mah-jongg question. Answers to all of the most frequently-asked questions about American (NMJL) mah-jongg are found in FAQ 19. Please always check the FAQs first, before asking a question. Thanks!
Your group needs to have a rulebook handy for whenever questions arise.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 25, 2010

Like, what the heck are these "pusher" things everybody's talking about... anyway??

>From: Chinara
>Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:32 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>What is the purpose of tile pushers? The best description I can get is something about protecting your tile wall from being seen while you push a tile to the center of the table. I guess I don't understand if the tile wall is the tiles on my rack or the one of four walls built at the beginning of the game (this doesn't make sense though because these tiles are face down). Please help!
>Thanks!

Hi Chinara,
Do you play American mah-jongg? Are you familiar with the fact that American players use racks to line up the walls, to serve the walls, and to line up the tiles in the hand while playing, and to place their exposures on top of? And where is it that you are reading all this stuff about pushers? By the way, I don't use the word "pushers" myself. I use the term "helping hands," because (as noted below in the post From: Anna Rosen, Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 8:06:46 AM) "pushers" are different from "helping hands."

Have you looked at the pictures of racks, helping hands, and "rulers" (AKA "pushers") in FAQ 7d? You can scroll up, click the FAQ 7d link at the left side, then scroll down and see pictures of these mystery thingies. (See sections on "Racks" and "Rulers.")

Note: I answered your question by asking you more questions. I did that for a reason. Because I don't know how much I have to explain to you, and I'd prefer not to explain more than I have to. So after you answer my questions, if you restate your question, I can explain it fully.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 24, 2010

Looking for unscratchable tiles

>From: Anonymous Person - extraaddress50
>Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 5:17 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>Are there any modern mah-jongg tiles (NOT ivory, bone, wood or bakelite) that don't scratch?
>Thank you.

Hello Extra Address 50,
I don't know of ANY material that won't scratch, except diamonds. So I guess the best you can do is look for the hardest tile materials out there. I would say avoid polyethylene tiles, and look for polystyrene tiles. See the descriptions of plastics in FAQ 7c3. You know where the FAQs are.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
February 24, 2010

What are "matching dragons"?

>From: Sandra
>Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:50 AM
>Subject: MAH JONGG
>I am just learning how to play Mah Jongg:
>What does it means by: Craks go with red dragons, bams go with green dragons, and dots go with white dragons (soaps).
>Also, what does it mean by "White dragon is always used for zero?

Hello Sandra, you asked:

I am just learning how to play Mah Jongg:
More precisely, you are learning how to play American style mah jongg. And apparently you are using the 2010 AMJA card? Because I don't see that wording on the NMJL card or the Marvelous card.

What does it means by: Craks go with red dragons, bams go with green dragons, and dots go with white dragons (soaps).
It means that when you see a hand with suit tiles and dragons, the dragons are considered to belong to a suit too. For instance, if you have a hand in all one color, with numbers and D's, then you have to use the dragon tiles that correspond to the suit you're using for the number tiles.

This imaginary hand is a one-suit hand (since it's just one color). That means that the 1's and 2's can be from any suit (but they must be from just ONE suit). The D's have to be from the SAME suit.

See? Bams "go with" green dragons. Since you know what the word "any" means, you know that you can make this hand with any suit, and you know which dragons MATCH whatever suit you use.

Also, what does it mean by "White dragon is always used for zero?
When you see a hand that has 0 among the numbers, the 0 has to be white dragon (AKA "soap"). Another imaginary example:

See? You don't necessarily use the "matching" dragon when the dragon is used as zero.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 24, 2010

Can I say mah-jongg if I'm waiting for a single? (FAQ 19E3)

From: "Vicki (vickser)
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 4:59 PM
Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
> My mah-jongg question or comment is:
> I'm sure you will send me to one of the FAQ's, but I'm not sure where
> the answer is.
> Can you call a single tile for Mahj? In other words, if I'm trying to
> get 2009 and waiting for the last soap, can I call it if it is thrown?
> Thank you,
> Vicki

From: "Vicki (vickser)
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:04 PM
Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
> My mah-jongg question or comment is:
> Never mind, I found it!
> Vicki

I am gladly never minding. (^_^)
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 23, 2010

Game Design > Bamboo Majan, part 2
>From: Moisés
>Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 1:52:55 PM
>Subject: RE: Mahjong question.
>Thanks for your answer.
>1. I meant you can only _CLAIM_ for Ron (as opposed to pon or chi. I know I can win by Tsumo).
>2. I see it's a good practice. Regular Mahjong for me would be CMR.
>3. When I talked about conversion, I meant playing it with CMR rules/hands, not programming a CMR version.
>4. So that is a breakdown of the scoring of the hand. OK, thank you. I figured that much, but I obviously need a better Japanese ^__^
>That also leaves the chombo things... I remember way long ago (when CMR actually had columns once in a while) you touched a bit with looking for waits in one-suited hands. This is something I'd like expanded, but sadly it seems American is hogging all the columns now. T__T
>I'm sorry if this emails looks angry. I'm not displeased by your answer, I'm just clarifying points.
>PS: the %E9 is supposed to look like é. Also, no need of being on a "first name last name" basis. Just first name should do.

Hello Moisés:

Oh!
OK.
Ah!
You're welcome.

I remember way long ago (when CMR actually had columns once in a while) you touched a bit with looking for waits in one-suited hands. This is something I'd like expanded but sadly it seems American is hogging all the columns now. T__T
I get inspired to write a column about MCR when there's some event that inspires me. Didn't go to any events all last year, and not sure if I'll go to the World event this summer. Sorry that your favored variant gets short shrift. (-_-)

Sorry also about including last name before. I've now deleted it. And I found that I can substitute "ampersand pound sign 233 semicolon" and get a é to appear. But when I get the email in my inbox, I see %E9 on this computer. Yesterday I had a guy write me about game design from Israel; this computer displayed his name with Cyrillic characters, but my home computer displays his name with Hebrew. Ain't computers wonderful, especially Steve Jobs vs. Bill Gates.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 23, 2010

Game Design > Bamboo Majan

>From: Mois%E9s
>Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 10:42:49 AM
>Subject: Mahjong question.
>My question about Mahjong is, what's going on here? http://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/bamboo/bamboo.html
>I understand this is a variation of Japanese (riichi) mahjong. I can read the kana, but not the kanji. I tend to lose badly, hehe. But I have no practice with riichi anyway. Seems you can only claim for Ron, and I probably miss calls of ron or tsumo.
>Questions are:
>1 How would you play this game well.
>2 Would it be worth to play this face to face.
>3 Can it be converted to other versions. (we play MCR)
>4 Is this a good practice exercise for something in regular Mahjong. (guessing 'yes', but what)
>I may be missing some rules and if you see something I didn't mention, that'd be cool to know, too. When it shows the scores, which I can't follow much (kanji), white is normal score, and I figured out yellow is limit, and red is a chombo penalty / furiten (sadly, I make those sometimes). But I can't follow all the chombos. Usually it's false hu, but once it showed a 7 and I had none of those in hand. Dunno what it could have been.
>Thank you for your time. :) Arigatou gozaimashita.

Hello Mois%E9s, you wrote:

what's going on here?
>I understand this is a variation of Japanese (riichi) mahjong.
Not really, no. It's a practice program. It deals tiles only in one suit so that you can learn about the many many ways a hand can be made in Japanese majan in just one suit. Different wait types, different combinations. It's not a variation that people play together (as far as I know).

Seems you can only claim for Ron
No. I just won a hand through tsumo (self-pick). To reply to your numbered questions next:

By practicing.
Worth is subjective. And the answer depends on your criteria, and what kind of mahjong you play. For a player of American mah-jongg only, it wouldn't be "worth it." Only you can determine whether it would be worth your time or not.
Anything is possible with enough time and money.
That depends on what your definition of "regular mahjong" is. (^_^) If you regard Asian forms as "regular," then yes.

[Explain the scoring display for me]
Well, it explains how much the hand is worth. I can't read Japanese well enough to explain it in the kind of detail you're looking for -- sorry!

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 23, 2010

My Xiangqi board, part 2

>From: Roxanne
>Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 8:58:01 PM
>Subject: Re: Game board inquiry
>Dear Tom,
>Thank you for your reply and thoughts. I would not have been able to find such a forum on my own. I appreciate your taking the time to post my inquiry and will check back in case anyone else answers the post. I hope you have a great week and thank you again for the great advice!
>Best,
>Roxy

All-in-one rack and pusher combo

>From: Anonymous Person (extraaddress50@hotmail.com)
>To: webmaster
>Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 10:21:26 AM
>Subject: All-in-one rack and pusher combo
>Hello
>The all-in-one rack and pusher combination racks (no money holder ends) seem to come in only 3 colors (matte black resin, matte red resin and a not shown clear or crystal version).
>I am interested in these but would like a different color or finish (shiny maybe?).
>Do you know the manufacturer of these?
>Have you ever seen a picture of the clear or crystal version (if so would you post it?)
>Thank you.

I'm not familiar with this particular item. You should try contacting the vendors listed in FAQ 4a.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
February 23, 2010

My Xiangqi board

>From: Roxanne
>Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 2:12:03 PM
>Subject: Game board inquiry
>Dear Tom,
>I found your website while researching Mah Jong and how to play. I'm not a collector, but I come across game sets all the time since I like to go to Antique stores. I live in the Santa Cruz area of California. I grew up with a librarian mom, so I have a natural tendency to want to learn about the origin, manufacturing, materials of all types of things. Plus I'm a product designer. I really respect your site and think that you have done an amazing job giving us readers an amazing resource into Mah Jong. I have been able to sell some of the sets I found with some level of accuracy and honesty. I am fair in price and more interested in keeping the games intact and not broken to make into jewelry which drives me nuts. Thanks!
>I humbly ask a question that is not related to Mah Jong and hope that somewhere in your research of board games and maybe fact finding you may have come across information on xiangqi game sets. I have tried to find information on the web and on Chinese art, Vietnamese manufacturers and xiangqi forums, with minimal luck. I know that there isn't much of a Western craze for this version of chess, but maybe in your research, there may be some book or reference that you came across that could help me. I did get one reply from the administrator of a xiangqi forum tell me that he'd never seen such a set before and wanted to use the photo of the game board on his site. Flattering, but unhelpful. There was also a manufacturer in Vietnam I contacted, however, they had an automated reply stating that they were not producing games at this moment.
>This is a folded wood set with fine mother of pearl inlay. I thought the game pieces were plastic, but one was quite worn, so I tested it and realized it was some type of either black horn or stained black horn. The inlay is quite decorative with images of phoenixes and dragons are all over the board.
>I am interested in how this set came to be and why the tiles are duplicative of one another. All contemporary and antique sets I've seen online and in museums have different characters for either player, so I thought that perhaps it was a custom game made for someone who was interested in xiangqi, but couldn't read Chinese characters. Also, this set cannot be played in discretion, with unmarked backside, since all pieces are carved with the same character on either side. That also vexes me as many sets have one side of the disc blank or use symbols for easier game play. It is clear, however, that the Chinese characters were hand carved as every character is drawn differently and the strokes are jagged looking. In comparing the set to any of the elaborate wood ones in museums, I can tell that the staining is heavy and inconsistent, the edges are not as detailed and thoughtful. Comparing it to contemporary boards sold online, however, the detail and workmanship are a lot nicer. I sense this may have been made in Vietnam since there is a lot of wood/mother of pearl crafts and available horn in that region. Not sure, though.
>The board has both dragons and phoenixes inlay, so it sort of seems overly decorative, but those two animals are mostly depicted for weddings, or so I thought. Since you are a game expert and professional designer, you could shed some light on why this game would be simplified with duplicative sides , but I am trying hard to understand why this set is so odd and cannot find any appropriate resources to help me. I don't even know if the game pieces are original to this set. There are no markings of any kind on the set and I don't know enough about "smells" to know what type of stain/wood it is. It's all a bit frustrating, so I hope you can forgive my asking you.
>I wouldn't want to waste your time, so if you are busy and do not reply, I understand. This is not the appropriate forum for this question, but I hope that maybe there may have been a tangent in your research that could shed some light on this game, so I thought I would ask.
>Warmly,
>Roxy

Hi Roxy,
I'm glad my mah jong information has been helpful to you. Let's see if I can figure out what your xiangqi questions are:

maybe in your research, there may be some book or reference that you came across that could help me.
I have a book, Chinese Chess by H. T. Lau, and I have a couple of Chinese chess games in my collection. There's a fairly active newsgroup. If you're not familiar with newsgroups you can just access it via Google Groups - copy and paste this into your browser's URL box: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.chinese-chess/topics?lnk

I am interested in how this set came to be
Sorry, I can't help you with that question.

and why the tiles are duplicative of one another [as opposed to adhering to the norms of other sets]
You will probably be able to get an answer on the newsgroup. But you'd need to post pictures of all the pieces online somewhere. If you've sold things on eBay you probably know how to do that already, but if you need tips, check http://www.sloperama.com/majexchange/pictures.htm

I sense this may have been made in Vietnam
I have no idea.

The board has both dragons and phoenixes inlay, so it sort of seems overly decorative, but those two animals are mostly depicted for weddings, or so I thought
I don't know that much about Chinese symbolism, but if you take a look at FAQ 7e and FAQ 11e (where I discuss the use of the dragon and phoenix on mah jong tiles) and get the books about Chinese symbolism I've listed in FAQ 3, you can surely learn a lot about the meaning of the dragon and phoenix.

I am trying hard to understand why this set is so odd and cannot find any appropriate resources to help me. I don't even know if the game pieces are original to this set.
I can't tell from the photo for sure, but it seems to me that some craftsmanship went into the making of the board but not the pieces. So I was thinking they might not be original to the set. Possibly made by someone unfamiliar with the game. But I don't know.

In your search for forums and information, have you used numerous different keywords? Like "xiangqi," "xiang qi," "chinese chess," etc.? I'm fairly certain you'll get answers on the newsgroup, Roxy. It could take time, though. Good luck!
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
2/22, 2010

Table rotation for our group - part 2

>From: Lynn
>Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 6:33:55 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>In regard to former question I was referring to NMJL. Thank you for explaining playing a "hand" as opposed to playing a "round". When we have 2 tables of 4 players each, after 1/12 hours of play, two players who are sitting adjacent to each other exchange tables and one of the remaining players still at the tables moves over to the next seat. Thus each table has two new players and remaining players play across from new people. This has worked out well for us. I'm still puzzled by how to rotate players with 3 tables of 4 players though. You recommend having 3 people move. Couldn't present E and S at each table leave, N moves across from W and new people take empty seats. (E & S at table 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 and 3 to 1.)? That way there would be 2 new people at each table and everyone would be playing across from someone different. I agree that best way with a floater would be switching with E after a hand is played. I have ordered your MJ book and anxiously await its arrival. Lynn C

Hi Lynn,
If you have a method that works for 2 tables, then it's not broke, so don't fix it. As for 3 tables, you could try your suggestion and see if it works or not. I'm not a mathematician, and I have not organized a tournament myself. But did you look at FAQ 21? The table rotation method described in there is known to work.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 19, 2010

Table rotation for our group

>From: Lynn P
>Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 9:36:27 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is: 2 questions:
>1. We have 2 tables of 4 players with one extra player. The extra person goes to first table that finishes the first round. Whom does she replace-the person who was East? The person she replaces then moves to the other table when their round is finished so that everyone gets a chance to play during the 3 hours.
>2. With 3 tables of 4 players after everyone has a turn to be East, someone has to move to another table. Who should it be-the first person who was East or the last person who was East? Reason for moving is that players don't want to stay at the sme table for the whole 3 hours of playing.
>The "tiles have not been with me lately", Lynn C.

Hello Lynn,
You didn't say which kind of mah-jongg you play, but my tarot cards tell me that it could be American/NMJL. (If my tarot cards are wrong, then everything I am about to write should be ignored!) There is no rule that governs a 2-table or 3-table rotation. So you're officially on your own in figuring out a method that works for your situation. But we can look at the NMJL's 5- and 6-player seat rotation, and at the way American tournaments handle table rotation, and extrapolate some ideas from those.

Two tables, extra player. Yes, the player that the odd man out should replace is East (the player who dealt the just-finished hand). That's based on the NMJL's rule about seat rotation with 5 players and one table. But:
I don't know if you're using the word "round" to mean the same thing the rest of the mah-jongg world uses the word for. A "round" is "everyone has had a turn to be East." A round takes about an hour, and that's a long time to cool one's heels while everybody else is playing. It's better (more tolerable) to float the extra player into a table as soon as one hand has ended (the period of time during which one player was East).
With 2 tables and one floating player, the same principle could be used, I suppose. I have never tried it, and other than some player resistance you might encounter, I don't see any reason at the moment why it wouldn't work.

Three tables, no extra players. You should not plan to move just one player from a table. You should move three. Again, there's no official rule for this. But what there is, is lots of precedence from tournaments. Take a look at FAQ 21 and see how American tournaments handle table rotation. You can link to the FAQs above left.

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 19, 2010

A frequently asked question

>From: "Martyf369
>Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 7:53:12 AM
>Subject: Mah jongg Q+A
>My mah jongg question or comment is:
>For a concealed hand, can you claim a discard for Mah Jongg or must your last tile come from the wall, also?
>Marty

Hello Marty,
You didn't mention which of the forty-plus kinds of mah jongg you play. If you play American (NMJL) mah jongg, you've asked Frequently Asked Question #19BD. If you play any of the thirty-nine OTHER kinds of mah jongg, though, you've asked Frequently Asked Question #20L. (As it turns out, the answer to this particular question is the same anyway, but it's better if you only check the FAQs for the type of mah jongg you play, so as not to further confuse yourself.)

Please scroll up and look for the blue and yellow flashing arrow, emblazoned "READ 1ST," like this ).

If you play American mah jongg, find the link to FAQ #19 (it's marked with a red, white, and blue flashing arrow, emblazoned "AMERICAN," like this ) and click it. After you've landed at the FAQ 19 page, please bookmark it so you can easily return to it anytime you have a mah jongg question. Answers to all of the most frequently-asked questions about American (NMJL) mah jongg are found in FAQ 19.

If you play an Asian variant of mah jongg, find the link to FAQ #20 and click it, and please bookmark it so you can easily return to it anytime you have a mah jongg question. Answers to the most frequently-asked questions about many Asian versions of mah jongg are found in FAQ 20... except Japanese mah jongg (for that one, see FAQ 25).

Please always check the FAQs first, before asking a question. And please always specify which kind of mah jongg you're asking about (or at least give information in the question that helps me identify the variant). Thanks!

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 18, 2010

Tile-matcher included with latest versions of Windows

From: "Chris Schumann"
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 2:38 PM
Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
> My mah-jongg question or comment is:
> For consideration to add to your FAQ 12, I thought I would write to
> point out that most versions of Windows Vista and Windows 7 come with a
> tile matching game called Mahjong Titans. Not bad for free.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahjong_Titans
> Chris

Well, OK then! Thanks, Chris. May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 17, 2010

Majiang Competition Rules (was: Kongfusion)

>From: Edwin Phua
>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 12:23 PM
>Subject: On MCR
>Dear Tom,
>Tom wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but more experienced players would also know that in all forms other than MCR in which the term "fan" (or Japanese "han") are used, the term "fan" refers to the math involved in the scoring. Typically it means a doubler. When the WMO used it to mean "scoring element" (or Japanese "yaku"), I argued that this was a nonstandard usage of the term, but they rejected my argument. On the ReachMahjong forums, we've seen numerous discussions decrying the EMA's confusion of "fan" and "yaku" in their otherwise excellent riichi rules.
>
>I agree with you and the many others: the use of the word 'fan' is problematic. I use this term only in the context of MCR since that is the term employed in the MCR Green Book (English translation). For convenience, I have preferred using this term (especially since it is available) to a more unwieldy term such as 'scoring element'.
>
>Interesting, in the Chinese version, the term used is 番种 fānzhǒng which translates approximately to 'scoring type', and it is defined as "the names/appellations given to patterns and combinations of tiles or ways of winning that are worth points" (item 3.4.26; approximate translation). Additionally, the document took care to use the term 分值 fēnzhí ('point value') that each 'fanzhong' was worth, and therefore avoids the traditional meaning of 'fan'. That is to say, 'fan' does not equate to point(s) in MCR, following the Chinese Green Book. So, in Chinese, there is less confusion since the term for scoring element is 'fanzhong' and not just 'fan', and another word 'fenzhi' is used to refer to points.
>
>Perhaps the term 'fan' was chosen in the English translation due to the use of 'fanzhong' in Chinese, but at the same time, avoids the more unfamiliar full term 'fanzhong' and just retaining the 'fan' portion (which is familiar to experienced players, albeit with a different meaning). It may be more confusing, but 'fan' as a single syllable word is handy to use. In MCR, the problem is lessened by the fact that there is no differentiation of 'han'/'fan' and 'yaku'.
>
>However, I feel there is a little problem with equating scoring element with 'yaku'. From what I understand about Japanese mahjong, 'yaku' are obligatory scoring elements that are required if a player is to win a hand. However, there are scoring elements are that not 'yaku', for example, 'dora'. There does not seem to be an all-compassing term for scoring elements in Japanese.
>
>It does seem that writing about mahjong can be extremely difficult given the multitude of native terms and the difficulty in translating such terms. I have seen translations that make things more confusing. For example, I have seen 'yaku' translated as 'winning hand' (this is in the Wikipedia article on Japanese Mahjong scoring rules). However, a winning hand (i.e. the complete hand of a player who declared a win) can have multiple 'yaku', and a careless (if convenient) translation can yield a logical nightmare of a statement such as "A's winning hand had 4 winning hands (='yaku')".
>
>Tom wrote: I agree that computer games are useful for learning the rules. But it can be intimidating to subsequently sit with live players and handle real tiles. There are aspects that the computer game handles automatically, that the player never gets exposure to.
>I had a teammate one time at an international event who had learned and played online only. This player was totally intimidated when joining a table at a practice session the night before the main event, and came very close to quitting. I talked the player out of it, saying that the impatience experienced at the practice table was just a result of the other players' feeling pressure to practice -- I assured the player that the players at the tournament itself would be better mannered.
>
>Yes, the live experience is incomparable, and should be the preferred mode of play for mahjong enthusiasts! However, since it may be quite difficult to find fellow enthusiasts to have a game in the US and other countries without a sizeable population of mahjong players, I guess online platforms is the only recourse for exposure.
>
>I am guessing that the problem with your (MCR?) teammate was the difficulty in scoring the hand? I know Mahjong Time automatically calculates winning hands, and newbies learning MCR directly from Mahjong Time usually do not quite understand how scoring works.
>Best regards,
>Edwin

Hi Edwin, you wrote:

I have preferred using this term [fan] (especially since it is available) to a more unwieldy term such as 'scoring element'.
I use it too, when in a conversation that is not going to veer off of MCR and when the other party in the conversation is familiar with the usage. I agree that "scoring element" is unwieldy but have not yet been able to find an existing English term that I like.

in the Chinese version, the term used is 番种 fānzhǒng ... Additionally, the document took care to use the term 分值 fēnzhí ('point value') that each 'fanzhong' was worth, and therefore avoids the traditional meaning of 'fan'.
Too bad the translator was unable to communicate this important fact. I think it's often necessary to provide the word from the original language as well as a (hopefully) equivalent word in English.

However, I feel there is a little problem with equating scoring element with 'yaku'. From what I understand about Japanese mahjong, 'yaku' are obligatory scoring elements that are required if a player is to win a hand. However, there are scoring elements are that not 'yaku', for example, 'dora'. There does not seem to be an all-compassing term for scoring elements in Japanese.
And no equivalent term in English for any of them.

I am guessing that the problem with your (MCR?) teammate was the difficulty in scoring the hand?
No. It was building and serving walls, knowing how to take tiles from the wall, which end to take from, where to place melds and discards... table etiquette of tile-handling. All such matters are handled automatically by a computer game. In this player's case, apparently the others were rather impatient at the player's unfamiliarity with such matters. I didn't witness the game myself.

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 17, 2010

My mother-of-pearl set

>From: Liz
>To: webmaster@sloperama.
>Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:28 AM
>Subject: FW: Mother of pearl antique set
>Worth trying both of you for any information available.
>Regards
>Liz
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: liz
>To: webmaster@mahjongmuseum.
>Subject: Mother of pearl antique set
>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:26:30 +0000
>Hi there
>I am from England and I have just purchased a Mahjong set made from Mother of pearl and Bamboo. I have attached a couple of photos. I have not been able to find any information about sets made from Mother of pearl. It really is quite beautiful, I probably paid too much at Auction £150.00 If you have any info I would love to hear from you.
>Kind regards
>Liz

Hi Liz,
I don't think $235 is overpaying. It's a very unusual and interesting set.
But that's just a guess on my part. I've never seen one like it. If you want to ask me a question, please make it a narrow and specific question. I don't do well with "any info" requests (see FAQ 7p, above left).
Cheers! And may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 17, 2010

Kongfusion, part 7

>From: Edwin Phua
>Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 8:13 PM
>Subject: Kongfusion and other things
>Dear Tom,
>Oh, of course. I am not trying to give Sean a hard time. In fact, my original reply had not assumed that he knew the rules very well, and was trying to explain the problem by using basic principles. However, Sean seems to be a little defensive for one who is supposedly trying to learn the rules.
>
>Learning how to play mahjong from books is not particularly easy. Even if an author writes very detailedly, it is possible that readers have parts they find difficult to understand. From what I see of Amy Lo's book, her explanation of kongs (pages 24 to 26) is actually quite adequate, although it is not particularly clear when a player can make his concealed or promoted kong.
>
>As for the MCR rulebook (the Green Book), it does not appear that this document was meant to be used for teaching/learning mahjong. Rather, it standardises certain aspects of known mahjong rules so that players originally playing different variants have a shared understanding of how things work in MCR. An effect of this intention can be seen in Appendix 1 of the Green Book describing the fan, where several fan (of 1, 2, 4 and 8 points) are not given explanations for how they work, presumably because they are already somewhat known in some of the variants forming the basis of MCR (i.e. Japanese riichi, Shanghai, Taiwanese etc.). For example: Last Tile Draw, Last Tile Claim, Robbing the Kong, Out with Replacement Tile, Last Tile, Two Terminal Chows, One Voided Suit etc. No beginner can hope to understand any of these basic fan without a written explanation (it is worse for beginners reading the Chinese version, since some of the fan have poetic names which does not give any hint about how the fan works). However, more experienced players would probably have some knowledge of what these fan are.
>
>Ultimately, it would be best to learn mahjong from an experienced teacher/player. If one is forced to learn from books (due to difficulty in finding a teacher), it may be a good idea to practise playing online (for example, on Mahjong Time) since online games now approximate live games fairly closely, at least in terms of rules and procedure.
>
>Now, to the really interesting part, on your comment on players' turns! It is difficult to label accurately some things sometimes, and this is one of those things, but I make an attempt here.
>
>Yes, since a chow is made only from a discard from a left-hand opponent (preceding oneself), it seems to be part of one's own turn, and a choice can be made whether to make a chow. Yet, at the same time, that chow choice is not a protected one - an opponent can trump the call to chow with a call to pung/kong. Additionally, the moment one makes that chow, the player cannot pick a tile, expose a flower, make a concealed/promoted kong, or declare a self-drawn win, actions which are normally part of one's 'own turn'. Conversely, when that opponent makes a pung call on a discard, it becomes his turn (which causes the player who had wanted to chow to have a non-existent turn), which similarly does not have the opportunity to pick a tile and so on.
>
>So, I propose the use of two/three terms to differentiate the kinds of player's turn. An operating condition would be: any turn ends when the player discards a tile.
>1. natural turn (unrestricted), where a player proceeds normally after a preceding opponent's discard, where a player can pick a tile, expose a flower, make a concealed/promoted kong and/or declare a self-drawn win.
>2a. seized* turn (restricted), where a player makes a call on an opponent's discard, and can only choose his own tile to discard as the only action within this turn.
>2b. seized turn (unrestricted), after a kong call, where a player gains the opportunity to pick a tile (as replacement for the kong), expose a flower, make a concealed/promoted kong and/or declare a self-drawn win.
>?3. a hu call, which does not lead to any other action and/or a discard.
>* I choose the word 'seize' to imply a forced change of turns due to the taking of the discard, and from "to seize an opportunity".
>
>Perhaps, the beginning of a player's turn should be premised on one of two conditions: the player picks a tile after the preceding opponent makes a discard on which no call has been made (this leads to a natural and unrestricted turn); or the player picks the discard where he has made a call of chow or pung (leading to a restricted seized turn) or kong (leading to an unrestricted seized turn). Each turn ends when the player makes a discard; the only exception being when a player makes a promoted kong that is Robbed by an opponent, this counts as a discard anyway, for the purpose of determining who is the discarder when scoring points.
>
>In this case using the above analysis, I would disagree with you that chowing is an option during one's own turn. Rather, there is a space of opportunity between two players' turns (from the point of discard of one player to the point of picking a tile/discard of another player) which can be manipulated by players' calls. However, I am not sure if all of the above discussion is really useful, since it is difficult to simplify, and we know most mahjong players do not really want to hear theory, just as they do not really want to hear the history of mahjong!
>Anyway, your bulletin board is quite useful and effective, sometimes more so than rec.games.mahjong!
>Best regards, and a (belated) Happy Chinese New Year!
>Edwin

Good morning, Edwin. You wrote:

As for the MCR rulebook (the Green Book), it does not appear that this document was meant to be used for teaching/learning mahjong. Rather, it standardises certain aspects of known mahjong rules so that players originally playing different variants have a shared understanding of how things work in MCR.
Good point.

However, more experienced players would probably have some knowledge of what these fan are.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but more experienced players would also know that in all forms other than MCR in which the term "fan" (or Japanese "han") are used, the term "fan" refers to the math involved in the scoring. Typically it means a doubler. When the WMO used it to mean "scoring element" (or Japanese "yaku"), I argued that this was a nonstandard usage of the term, but they rejected my argument. On the ReachMahjong forums, we've seen numerous discussions decrying the EMA's confusion of "fan" and "yaku" in their otherwise excellent riichi rules.

If one is forced to learn from books (due to difficulty in finding a teacher), it may be a good idea to practise playing online (for example, on Mahjong Time) since online games now approximate live games fairly closely, at least in terms of rules and procedure.
I agree that computer games are useful for learning the rules. But it can be intimidating to subsequently sit with live players and handle real tiles. There are aspects that the computer game handles automatically, that the player never gets exposure to.
I had a teammate one time at an international event who had learned and played online only. This player was totally intimidated when joining a table at a practice session the night before the main event, and came very close to quitting. I talked the player out of it, saying that the impatience experienced at the practice table was just a result of the other players' feeling pressure to practice -- I assured the player that the players at the tournament itself would be better mannered.

that chow choice is not a protected one - an opponent can trump the call to chow with a call to pung/kong.
That would be the crux of the matter, then, regarding my offhand comment last night.

the moment one makes that chow, the player cannot pick a tile, expose a flower, make a concealed/promoted kong, or declare a self-drawn win, actions which are normally part of one's 'own turn'.
One's turn consists of a number of parts, and some of those parts are "optional" or may be substituted for another turn part. Your description of different kinds of turns makes sense.

I would disagree with you that chowing is an option during one's own turn.
OK.

your bulletin board is quite useful and effective, sometimes more so than rec.games.mahjong!
Thanks for saying that. I am glad that the newsgroup has managed to survive, because I think it is useful and effective in its own way.

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 17, 2010

Kongfusion, part 6

>From: Edwin Phua
>Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 7:50:24 PM
>Subject: Kongfusion
>Dear Tom,
>Sean has an interesting way of rationalising his misinterpretation. Yes, it may be tactical to play concealed kongs in such an incorrect way. As a logical extension, a player can also expose a flower anytime to interfere with the change of turns! However, I do not know of any Asian variant that plays it this way, because all Asian variants seem to use the rules in a consistent and logical way.
>
>The basic rule is that outside a player's turn, the player can only do a few things: chow, pung/kong, or hu, and all these calls have to involve the discard. If you interpret the general game principles by ignoring the part that your action have to involve the discard, then I have to point out your problematic misunderstanding of the basic game principles.
>
>As for tactical use of declaring concealed kongs, I doubt that it is all that valid. I would think that such a move that interferes with another player's call to chow or pung, would be lower in priority than those calls, rather than higher. That is to say that even if you want to make a concealed kong to prevent a player from making a pung, that move would be disallowed in that particular 'turn' and therefore not really useful in a tactical sense anyway.
>Best regards,
>Edwin

Hi Edwin,
We need to cut Sean some slack since he was a novice to mahjong, and was trying to learn the game from two sources:
- the MCR manual (apparently, the one available as a free download from chinamajiang.com although he hasn't yet confirmed that), and it's a flawed document in that it's incompletely translated (and even the original Chinese document has some flaws and sort of glosses over things);
- And Amy Lo's book, which describes the HKOS game and tacks on some other rule sets, not going into quite as much detail as a novice might desire.

So Sean is trying to get a handle (from books) on how konging works -- he doesn't have a base of mahjong knowledge from other forms. (He does have a basic misunderstanding, and that's why he asked a question in the first place.)

To comment on one thing you said:

>The basic rule is that outside a player's turn, the player can only do a few things: chow, pung/kong, or hu

Since one can only chow from the player whose turn precedes one's own, it can be argued that chowing is an option when it's one's turn (so it isn't an action one does outside one's turn). Is there a way I can say that this "can be argued," without actually having to argue it myself? (^_^)

As for your last paragraph, I agree.

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 16, 2010

That first quint hand again

>From: Fran
>Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 11:58:30 AM
>Subject: MahJongg question!
>I tried to pick up a discard to match the 2009 game card and was told that I could not do that because it was 1123, the first set in the quints section. They told me that it was a pair and 2 singles! But it is presented ony as any3consec.nos: pr. any no. in run: pr & quints match.
>It is 1123 11111 11111 in the quints. What is the real rule on this please. Can you or can't you pick up the necessary tile to make up the first 4 tiles which are together?????
>Thank you for any infor you can on this question.
>Fran

Hi Fran,
Please scroll up and find the links to the Frequently Asked Questions (look for the blue and yellow flashing arrow, emblazoned "READ 1ST," like this ). Find the link to FAQ #16 (it's marked with a red, white, and blue flashing arrow, emblazoned "AMERICAN," like this ) and click it.

Answers to all of the most frequently-asked questions about the NMJL card are found in FAQ 16. Always check the FAQs first before asking a question.

In the case of the question you have asked, you should also read FAQ 19E.

(Hint: If 1123 is NOT "a pair and 2 singles," then what IS it? It can't be a kong, since a kong is "four identical tiles.")

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 16, 2010

Happy Year of Le Tigre!

>From: laurent.mahe
>Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 4:57 AM
>Subject: Re :Happy Year of the Tiger!
>Hi Tom,
>Happy new year to you.
>Could you made an annoucement on your website for Paris tournament ?
>http://www.mahjong-paris.com/2010
>Friendly
>Laurent

Mais certainement, Laurent!
5ème Tournoi International de Mah-Jongg, 24 et 25 avril 2010 - http://www.mahjong-paris.com/2010
May les tiles be avec vous.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
The Ides of February, 2010

Kongfusion, part 5

From: "Sean
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: official MCR majiang rules question
> Thanks very much for the update.
> Andrew and Edwin actually were correct about the meaning of my
> questions. Ok, that's good to know: concealed and promoted Kongs can
> only be declared on your own turn, although it does not have to be the
> turn in which you drew the 4th tile.
>
> However, I disagree with Edwin that the other interpretation is
> obviously impossible from general game principles. If the game was
> played this incorrect way, it would just mean that concealed Kongs
> would be very tactical. If the question was "What if North wants to
> chow the discard from West?" the answer is "Tough luck, North does not
> get the tile he wants because concealed Kongs are very rare, and the
> player who has one is free to use it to upset North's strategy".
> Anyway, my question was basically "What are the rules???" so it
> doesn't make sense to answer "That's obviously impossible if you know
> the rules".
>
> Thanks again. I think I finally got it straight. Maybe I should just
> buy your book... =)
> -- - sean

Thumbs up to that last part, Sean!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
The ides of February, 2010

Kongfusion, part 4

>From: Edwin Phua
>Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 10:07 PM
>Subject: Kongfusion
>Dear Tom,
>From my reading of Sean's original email, he did seem to imply that he thought declaring a concealed kong was possible in-between two other players' turns (in Statement 3), as the conditions for his statements were based on having a concealed pung in hand and drawing the fourth tile himself.
>
>As Andrew has mentioned in his email, Statement 3 is not correct because concealed kongs have to be made during one's own turn. During one's own turn (if he did not use a discard from an opponent), one must pick a tile, then can go on to do the following: expose a flower tile and replace it; make a concealed kong and replace the kong tile; and/or declare hu. If hu does not occur, the player discards a tile and the turn moves on to the next player.
>
>In Sean's Statement 3 ("At any time between the end of one player's turn and the start of the next player's turn"), he asks if a concealed kong can be made in-between any two adjacent players' turns. Technically, the only actions that can be made by any player in-between one player's turn and the next player's turn are those involving the discard: chow, pung, kong, or hu. I would say that making a concealed kong on another player's turn is not possible because it does not involve the other player's discard. If another player (e.g. West) discards a tile, and the player East makes a concealed kong on that turn, what happens to the other player's discard? What if North wants to chow the discard from West? How can East take the turn away from North just because he makes a kong (i.e. from four concealed tiles within his own hand, and not using the discard from West)? There is no internal game logic to such moves. Statement (3) is not correct because the game mechanics does not allow such moves.
>
>Since making a concealed kong during another player's turn is not possible, the changing of the turn because of making a concealed kong is also not possible. Note that declaring a pung involves taking another player's discard, whereas making a concealed kong does not. Therefore, the mechanics of making a concealed kong and making a melded pung are different and cannot be compared. Sean's statement (4) is therefore also not valid.
>
>Statement (6) is about promoted kongs. Although the English version of the MCR Green Book does not discuss promoted kongs, one of the fans (no. 47, Robbing the Kong) deals specifically with promoted kongs. Only promoted kongs can be robbed; concealed kongs are kept concealed until the end of the hand, while normal kongs from other players' discards does not allow Robbing the Kong, as a win from such a discard is a matter of call priority rather than taking the kong tile away from a player who technically did not make a discard. The interesting thing is that if players do not know what promoted kongs are, this fan Robbing the Kong would be a problematic fan to interpret and use when playing MCR.
>Best regards,
>Edwin

Quite right on all counts, Edwin.
I'll make sure Sean knows these new posts are here.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
Valentine's Day, Year of the Tiger - 恭喜發財!!

Kongfusion, part 3

>From: Andrew
>Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 7:42 PM
>Subject: kongfusion
>I don't know if you just let it go, or aren't reading it the same way as I am, but: Sean's original point 4 seems to me to be saying that you can call kong on some random discard, put your four tiles down, and go on from there. That won't fly -- if the discarded tile is the 4th you can call it for an exposed kong, but you can only claim concealed kong on your own turn (that started with a pick from the wall), albeit it doesn't have to be the turn on which you got the kong.
>--
>Andrew Feist http://tabstopva.blogspot.com
>Comma splices are the bad marriages of English grammar: two different sentences, yearning to be free and independent, but shackled together in an incomplete bond based on a bad decision.

Hi Andrew,
I don't think that's what Sean was asking. But you're right, of course. Declaring a concealed kong, or promoting an exposed to a pung, is not something that can be done out of turn. I think his question 4 was asking about declaring an exposed kong, and that's the way I answered it. Happy Year of the Tiger, and may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
Valentine's Day, the Year of the Tiger - 恭喜發財!!

Can they DO that???

>From: howard
>To: tomster©sloperama.com
>Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:54 AM
>Subject: Fw: changing mah-jongg card
>--- On Sun, 2/14/10, howard wrote:
>From: howard
>Subject: Fw: changing mahjongg card
>To: tomsloper©sloperrama.com
>Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 2:44 PM
>--- On Sun, 2/14/10, howard wrote:
>From: howard
>Subject: changing mahjongg card
>To: tomsloper©sloperama.com
>Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 2:43 PM
>hi tom my wife recently went to a mah-jongg tournament the lady who ran the tournament arbitrareally added a hand to the mah jongg card at her own discretion because of this added hand my wife lost the hand and she ran out of the money my question to you can a tournament hostess add on a hand she made up to the mah-jongg card on her own whim?
>thank you howard

Hi Howard,
Of course she can do that. Why not? What were you two thinking to do, report her to the Mahjongg District Attorney or something? (^_^) Because there isn't one.
In fact, I make up a new hand every Chinese New Year myself. I'm going to suggest it as a one-day optional hand to my weekly group tomorrow.
And I have to say, I sincerely doubt that the reason your wife didn't win the tournament is just because an original hand was made up for the tournament.
Maybe you can just give your wife some scented candles and bath bubble solution so she can relax a little. Maybe a back rub.

Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
Valentine's Day, Year of the Tiger

P.S. By the way, today I set up the email address "tomsloper at sloperama dot com," in case anybody else tries to email me using that. Good idea, I hadn't thought of that before now.

恭喜發財! 2010 is the Year of the Tiger! (Click to see your New Year's card.) Tom Sloper February 14, 2010

Kongfusion, part 2

From: "Sean
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: official MCR majiang rules question
> Ah, thanks. That helps a lot. What I meant about "changing the turn"
> was that anybody inbetween the previous player and you gets skipped
> just like a Pung. I guess I'm pretty sure this is what happens, I just
> wanted to get all my clarifications out at once.
> If you want to modify my question on the BB so that it makes more
> sense for your other readers, feel free.
>
> The only physical book I have is the one by Amy Lo. The only context
> in which it describes Chow, Pung and Kong is the Canton style. For the
> other styles it mostly describes scoring. Anyway, it suggests (to me)
> that if you have a concealed Pung and you draw the 4th identical tile
> from the wall, the only time when you are able to declare Kong is
> *immediately*.
>
> One more question I forgot to ask:
> (6) It would seem, according to Amy Lo's book, that if you have an
> exposed (melded) Pung face-up in front of you and you draw the 4th
> identical tile from the wall, you can actually add it to the existing
> Pung. However, there is absolutely nothing about this in the MCR
> rules. Does this rule apply to the MCR game, or not?
> Thanks again.
> -- - sean

Hi Sean, you wrote:

What I meant about "changing the turn"
> was that anybody inbetween the previous player and you gets skipped
> just like a Pung. I guess I'm pretty sure this is what happens, I just
> wanted to get all my clarifications out at once.
Okay, yes. If you want to take a concealed-in-the-hand pung and declare an exposed kong on a discard, you can do that on anyone's discard, just as you can declare an exposed pung on a discard.

[the description in] Amy Lo['s book]... suggests (to me)
> that if you have a concealed Pung and you draw the 4th identical tile
> from the wall, the only time when you are able to declare Kong is
> *immediately*.
Let's just say that her description is a little skimpy on details. I tried to avoid that sort of skimpiness in my book, possibly to the point of sometimes excessively (read: "anal") technical verbiage.

It would seem, according to Amy Lo's book, that if you have an
> exposed (melded) Pung face-up in front of you and you draw the 4th
> identical tile from the wall, you can actually add it to the existing
> Pung.
Yes, that's called a "promoted kong." You promoted the pung to a kong with a self-picked tile. This rule applies to all un-American forms of majiang.

However, there is absolutely nothing about this in the MCR
> rules.
You never told me where you read the MCR rules. The official MCR rulebook, probably? I have written an errata file for the official MCR rulebook, and it says:

3.6.8 (P. 14-15) The Chinese text apparently discusses all three types of kongs, while the English text only discusses two. A brief discussion of the promoted kong is needed here. Need a good translation of the apropos Chinese text.

You can download my MCR errata file at http://sloperama.com/tour/rulebook.htm

Does this rule apply to the MCR game, or not?
Yes, you can promote a pung to a kong in MCR. It increases the value of the exposed set by 1 point.

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 13, 2010

Kongfusion

From: "Sean
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 11:30 PM
Subject: official MCR majiang rules question
> Hi, I read through your "misunderstood asian rules" FAQ but I did not
> find an answer to this question, or perhaps I was not smart enough to
> deduce it.
> My question is about the rule for Kong in the English MCR online
> rulebook. More specifically, I'm confused about what happens or can
> happen if you already have a concealed Pung and you draw the 4th
> matching tile from the wall. No two sources I have read say the same
> thing about Kong.
>
> Are the following statements correct:
> (1) If you wish, you can say nothing and keep the tile.
> (2) For as long as you avoid declaring Kong, you merely have a Pung
> and 1 separate tile [so the only way to declare Majiang in this state
> is to use that separate tile as part of a Chow]
> (3) At any time between the end of one player's turn and the start of
> the next player's turn, you can declare Kong, in which case you must
> place the 4 tiles FACE-DOWN in front of you [separate from the rest of
> your hand], draw a makeup tile, and discard a tile.
> (4) Declaring Kong in this way changes the turn in the same way as
> declaring Pung.
> (5) At the end of the hand (after Majiang is declared by somebody),
> the face-down Kong is turned face up for viewing by the other players.
> Thanks!
> -- - sean

Hi Sean,

Yes, sure. Same with flowers, if you want.
Yes and no. Yes, that's what you have, but using it in a chow is not the only possibility. You can also do #3.
Yes and no. Yes, that's what you do, except not necessarily for the last step -- if the "makeup tile" completes your hand, you don't need to discard -- you can declare "hu."
Huh? You lost me. I don't know what you mean about "changing the turn."
Usually, yeah.

No two sources I have read say the same
> thing about Kong.
That makes me wonder what those sources were, and what they said. I discussed concealed kongs in my book on pages 135-136 and 170, and I hope my book's descriptions of concealed kongs are unambiguously clear.

Except for the concealed kong being entirely face-down, the concealed kong rules used in MCR are pretty much universal to all Asian ("un-American") forms of majiang.

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 13, 2010

Cardinal of NY and/or Brooklyn, part 2

>From: Jane
>Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 10:07 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
> I have several questions about the Cardinal mah jongg set that I recently bought:
>1. I'm reasonably confident that the tiles are Catalin. I've seen references on e-bay to "rare Olive Oil Catalin" but I've been unable to determine what this reference means. What is "Olive Oil Catalin"?
>2. Some of the tiles were made into jokers using either old "S&H Green Stamps" or vinyl tape. Should I remove the tape and clean off any residual adhesive (by the methods described in your FAQ) or just leave them "as is" (I personally find the "crassness" of the materials somewhat disturbing as the set itself is quite beautiful and the stickers are not)?
>3. I read an article that suggests that "Goo Gone" is effective for removing gooey adhesives without damaging the tile colors. I didn't see "Goo Gone" discussed among the discussions in your FAQ. Have you had any experience with "Goo Gone"?
>4. Some of the racks and tiles have bits of what looks like just plain dirt, dust and/or grime accumulated in the crevices which I suspect can be easily cleaned (again using the methods that you discuss in your FAQ). Is there any reason not to clean them up?
>5. There are a number of either red and blue NMJL cards with the set (specifically: 4 red 1957; 2 blue 1958; 2 red 1960-61; 4 blue 1967-68; 4 blue 1971-1972; 4 red 1974-75). They seem to be in excellent condition. (i) Are these considered relatively old or rare; (ii) are there any specific years within that range that are particularly desirable; and, (iii) is there any significance to the difference (red v. blue) in color?

Hi Jane, you wrote:

What is "Olive Oil Catalin"?
I have no idea. People on eBay say all sorts of outlandish things. Why don't you email them and ask them what it means? (I assume it refers to the color, but I could be wrong.)

Should I remove the tape and clean off any residual adhesive (by the methods described in your FAQ) or just leave them "as is" (I personally find the "crassness" of the materials somewhat disturbing as the set itself is quite beautiful and the stickers are not)?
It's entirely up to you. If it was MY set, I'd remove ugly stickers. But I cannot take the responsibility to advise YOU what to do with YOUR set.

Have you had any experience with "Goo Gone"?
I absolutely love Goo Gone. Not sure if I've used it on mah-jongg tiles... but I might have, and I would use it. But it only works on sticky tape residue. I don't know how well it would work on tape residue that's 30, 40, or 50 years old. You could try it on one tile, see how it goes.

Is there any reason not to clean [the racks] up?
None that I can think of. Are there any you can think of?

Are these [NMJL cards] considered relatively old
I can't speak for everybody, but I think I would consider a paper item that's 40 years old as "relatively old."

or rare;
Hard to get hold of, yes. Rare? Probably not.

are there any specific years within that range that are particularly desirable
Could be, but I have no way of knowing. I've seen books where people publish the rarity and value of stamps, coins, records, and comic books -- but I've never seen such a listing for old NMJL cards. Somebody recently posted asking about where to get old NMJL cards, but she never replied to the question I asked her about her question. You can scroll down and read the post, "You never said where to buy old cards," From: Irene, Sent: Monday, February 08.

is there any significance to the difference (red v. blue) in color?
The color alternates each year (red, then blue, then red again). The only "significance" is that it'd be very noticeable if 3 players are using a red card and 1 is using a blue one -- everybody'd be able to tell that there was something wrong with that picture.

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 12, 2010

Cardinal of NY? Or Cardinal of Brooklyn?

>From: Jane
>Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 5:34:10 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>I have what I think is an old set. The case has a label pictured below) that says: "mah jongg by Cardinal Products Co. New York 1 NY". I have not been able to find anything out about the Company by researching it directly (although I can't comment on the quality of my research). All references that I've found regarding "Cardinal sets" seem to refer to "Cardinal Products Co. Brooklyn 11 NY". I assume that they refer to the same company that may have relocated at some point. Do you know anything about the history of the Cardinal Products Co. that might explain the difference? Thank you.
>PS. I have several other questions about the set. Would you prefer that I submit them separately, or all in one submission.

Hi Jane,
I would certainly assume that there were NOT two different Cardinal Products Companies, just across the river from one another. (^_^) I'm not an expert in manufacturers. Jim May's MahjongMuseum website has apparently been inflicted with malicious software so I don't recommend going there right now (earlier today I thought the site had been shut down but apparently not), so the only other site I know of that offers much information regarding American manufacturers is CHarli's site. You'll find it listed in FAQ 4a. You can access the FAQs above left.

If you have other questions to ask about your set, you're welcome to ask them all in one email. BUT, before you ask them, please try to find the answers in FAQ 7. And if you do send me a list of questions, it would be wonderful if you would number them for me.

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 12, 2010

Regarding column #401

>From: elisegk
>Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 6:06 PM
>Subject: col 401 #10
>Ok, I made sure I didn't misread this hand before posting
>#10 -- I would keep the 1C-2C 3D- 4D-4d-4D -- since it is a good start to my favorite consecutive hand, and would pass W - R - 4B
>Still leaves you in position for 22-44Craks 444-666Dots 8888Bams if that comes in instead!
>Elise

Hi Elise,
Well, let's see what I had written: "Definitely 2468. I'd pass 1C 3D W. No-brainer."
Yes, your idea is good. Your "favorite consecutive hand" is the perennial easiest and most reliable hand on the card, so it's a very good choice.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
2/11, 2010

Regarding column #429, part 3

>From: "elisegk To: tomster@sloperama.com
>Sent: Thu, February 11, 2010 4:48:33 PM
>Subject: Re: woops
> I think I've spent these past two snow days going through 15 of your strategy columns! thanks for posting.. :)

(^_^)
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
2/11, 2010

Regarding column #429, part 2

>From: "elisegk
>Sent: Thu, February 11, 2010 4:05:16 PM
>Subject: woops
>For some reason, when I saw the two W -Ws, I was thinking they were whites (instead of Wests!) No, I wouldn't go for a 2009 hand if I didn't have at least one white - thanks!

OK, Elise. It was still nice to hear from you.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
2/11, 2010

Frequently Asked Question #7h

>From: "amermja
>Sent: Thu, February 11, 2010 7:16:09 AM
>Subject: what is this worth
>hi,
>you really are a great photographer. it is very clear as to what the set looks like. i will show this to my mah jongg expert and see what he thinks. will get back to you soon. Lois
>-----Original Message-----
>From: maryches
>Sent: Wed, Feb 10, 2010 12:45 pm
>Subject: Fw: My collectible Mah Jongg Set
>IMG_0929
>IMG_0930
>IMG_0931
>IMG_0933
>IMG_0935
>IMG_0936
>IMG_0937
>IMG_0938
>IMG_0939
>IMG_0940
>IMG_0941
>IMG_0942
>IMG_0943
> The picture above shows the warped bottom of one drawer --
> I can see light thru the tiny cracks.
>IMG_0944
>IMG_0945
>IMG_0946
>IMG_0947
>Mary [PERSONAL INFO DELETED]

Hi Ladies,
It's only fair that you understand and agree to my rules before we proceed. I'm pretty certain that this email was forwarded to me without knowledge of my rules and how I do this.
I don't give free AND private set valuations. And I can't give a valuation without information. The pictures tell me a lot, but they can't tell me about the set's condition, whether the tiles are pleasant to the touch, if they smell musty, etc.

In order to ensure that I get enough information to give a valuation, I've created "FAQ (Frequently Asked Question) 7h" -- it's on my website, at http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq/value.htm. I ask that anyone requesting a valuation provide me all the information requested in that FAQ.
Once I have gotten all that information, I can give you a free valuation, but it won't be private. I put free valuations on my Mah-Jongg Q&A bulletin board -- http://www.sloperama.com/majexchange/bulletinbd.htm -- including the photos of the set being valuated (just the ones I think are necessary, and reduced in size to save server space and to make friendly loading times for the viewers of the bulletin board).

If somebody wants a PRIVATE valuation, I still need all the information in FAQ 7h, and I need to be paid.
Those are my rules. I stand by to get the information about the set, and then I can proceed.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
2/11, 2010

We want to organize competitions, part 4

>From: Edwin Phua
>Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 8:49 PM
>Subject: Tournament scheduling
>Dear Tom,
>A full round-robin is indeed possible for 16 players in a 4-player game. For each competitor, there are 15 opponents in the pool, there would be a total of 5 rounds (with 3 opponents per round) allowing a player to meet all his opponents once without any repeats.
>
>A schedule for the 16-player round robin can be found via this link on this Round Robin Tournament Scheduling forum: http://www.devenezia.com/round-robin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1135433203/0#0.
>
>For 16 players, the basic formula is something like (1 + 5*3), where '5' is the number of rounds. The next possible number of players for such a round-robin would be 28 (1 + 9*3), 40 (1 + 13*3), 52 (1 + 17*3), and 64 (1 + 21*3).
>
>More information on the theory behind these solutions can be found here: http://www.maa.org/editorial/mathgames/mathgames_08_14_07.html.
>
>Smaller numbers of players (less than 16) would be difficult to schedule in a 4-player game like mahjong. For larger numbers, epecially in tournaments with a limited number of rounds, there is a basic method where each player at the original table moves up 1, 2, or 3 tables, without meeting an opponent again (numbers must be sufficiently large though).
>Best regards,
>Edwin

Hi Edwin!
Thanks for those links and that explanation. One thing you said:

A full round-robin is indeed possible for 16 players in a 4-player game. Smaller numbers of players (less than 16) would be difficult to schedule in a 4-player game like mahjong.
Exactly what I figured (read: "guessed"). But since I don't regard myself as a math-head, I wasn't able to (and didn't want to try to) explain it to Tony. I'll append this to FAQ 21 for future tournament organizers.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
02/10/2010

We want to organize competitions, part 3

>From: Andrew
>Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 4:05 PM
>Subject: tournament scheduling
>I've never done a tournament in mahjong, but I've done quite a few X tournaments for quite a few different X's, so if you want to pass my name/info along to Tony I can work with him a bit.
>
>But I'm pretty sure you can never do a "round-robin" in a multi-player game without repeating an opponent (for instance, in a four-player game such as mahjong, you can work out four rounds without any repeated opponents, meaning you get to play 3*4=12 of the 15 possible opponents, but that's it). If you wanted to do something like a double-round where you see every opponent twice, you might be able to get farther.
>
>And if you don't have at least n^2 players (i.e., nine in a 3-player game, sixteen in a 4-player game) you can't even get past the first round. (For example, if you have twelve players and in the first round you do
>ABCD EFGH IJKL as your three games, for the next round you can't separate A, B, C, and D as you don't have four different tables to put them in, so someone will have to have a "rematch".)
>
>So it really comes down to why OP [Original Poster, i.e. Tony] wants a round-robin: the most fair type of schedule, or variety in games, or what. (Also: time becomes a concern after a while as well.)
>--
>Andrew http://tabstopva.blogspot.com
>Comma splices are the bad marriages of English grammar: two different sentences, yearning to be free and independent, but shackled together in an incomplete bond based on a bad decision.

That's awesome info, Andrew. I'll append this to FAQ 21 for future organizers.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
02/10/2010

Erratum in "The Red Dragon & The West Wind,"

>From: Bill/Ginny
>To: Webmaster@Sloperama
>Cc: Marsha; Mona; Dick & Judy
>Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 7:10:17 AM
>Subject: PICKING DISCARD DISAGREEMENT
>Hello Mr. Sloper,
>Your book has helped me tremendously in my understanding of MJ. However on page 100, 2007 edition of RD & WW, it says that putting a tile on a rack is a rescindable act as long as other tiles have not been exposed. This disagrees with the National MJ League, Inc. They state that once a tile is on your rack it is not rescindable. Can you explain this discrepancy? Thanks very much.
>Ginny

>From: Dick
>To: Bill/Ginny; Webmaster@Sloperama
>Cc: Marsha; Mona
>Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 7:15:24 AM
>Subject: Re: PICKING DISCARD DISAGREEMENT
>Ginny,
>Thanks for checking on this. Please let us know what he says.
>Thanks,
>Judy

Hello Judy,
He says that he knows that the NMJL rule has been clarified in the yearly NMJL bulletin, and you can find this covered in the errata list available on his website. You can download the errata from http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq/rdww.htm. Or, you can just go to his mah-jongg website and click on any white banner ad advertising his book (there's one atop this page, and it's kinda plastered all over most of the pages of this site), and you'll automatically go to that page. There you can download the errata file and learn where the book is available, in either print or e-book format. Here's the passage from the errata file about page 100:

P. 100 - Top of page (Taking a discard). The actual rule, direct from the NMJL: After claiming a discard, you can change your mind provided that you have not yet put the discard atop your rack or exposed tiles from your hand. Do either of those things and you're committed to taking the discard. Merely lifting the discard from the table does not commit you to taking the discard (this being a different case from picking from the wall).

But, says the NMJL, that's the hardnosed rule used in tournaments. In a home game, the player might be permitted to put the discard back, even if she's put it atop her rack, so long as she hasn't exposed tiles from the hand.

And before you ask, he doesn't know when or if HarperCollins will issue a new edition of the book. (^_^) Probably not any time soon. Until such time as a new edition is released, he recommends that every owner of the book have a copy of the errata.

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
02/10/2010

We want to organize competitions, part 2

>From: Tony
>Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 2:52:23 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is: OK. Sorry for not being so precise. We have a new club. We want to organize competitions. We expect to have between 8 and 16 players involved. We need a schedule where everybody plays everybody else the same number of times (in round robin everybody plays everybody else once). Can you direct me to somewhere where someone has worked this out before? I can't believe that nobody has tried to work this out before.. Thanks. Tony

Hi Tony,
Of course many tournament organizers have worked out ways to rotate seats at a table during a game session, and ways to rotate tables between game sessions. But it sounds like you expect that those folks have published their methodologies on the Internet somewhere -- and I've never seen anyone do that.

You can find how seat rotation works at WMCC-organized events. Go to http://sloperama.com/tour/rulebook.htm and you can download the Mahjong Competition Rules (there's a link there). But as for table rotation, I discussed that a little in FAQ 21 (you didn't say if you'd read it or not), but you probably will have to just sort of puzzle this out on your own. It isn't always possible for every player at an event to play every other player (work out the math). The tournament organizers do manage somehow, though, to make sure to pit me against the top champions every time I play in a tournament (how else can you account for my low scores, and the champions' high scores?) (half-kidding).
Good luck. Let me know what you figure out, and I can post the information for future organizers who ask this same question.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 9, 2010

Mystery thingy, part 3

I slap my forehead. I just figured out what it is. It's the end stopper from a mah-jongg rack. It goes at the left side of the rack, between the tiles and the coin holder.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 9, 2010

Mystery thingy, part 2

>From: EVELYN
>Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 1:35:07 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>Well, Tom Sloper, I used to play the violin and that bakelite ÒthingyÓ you commented on is no violin bridge. Keep thinking.

Nope. I'm done thinking, Arlene. All I can tell you is that it has nothing to do with mah-jongg.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 9, 2010

Mystery thingy

>From: EVELYN
>Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 12:07:49 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is: P2090945.JPG Found this piece in my mom's mah jongg set. Can you identify it? Is it a tool? Accessory? Would appreciate any info you have.
>Thanks,
>Arlene

Hi Arlene,
Well, I'm no expert, but it looks to me like a bridge from a violin. It doesn't belong in a mah-jongg set.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 9, 2010

We want to organize competitions.

>From: Tony
>Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 8:44:03 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is: I am running a new Mah-Jongg club and we want to organise competitions. Can anyone direct me to templates for scheduling round robin events for different numbers of players in a tournament or league format?
>Many thanks
>Tony

Hi Tony,
I'm not sure what you're asking for exactly. A "template" for "scheduling"? And I forget what "round robin" means exactly. And I don't know what you mean about "different numbers of players" either. But you might find some useful information in FAQ 21 (see FAQ links above left), and I might be able to offer even more help if you rephrase your question more precisely for me (if you don't find what you want to know in that FAQ).
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 9, 2010

I need "pushers" that work with "vintage" racks, part 3

>From: Lee
>Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:14 PM
>Subject: Re: Mah-Jongg want ads
>Hello Tom,
>I wanted to update you about the " Wanted " ad that you were kind enough to place on your site.
>[DELETED]
>I hadn't heard anything from anyone, for some days, so I decided to purchase the clear acrylic pushers from Yellow Mountain Imports... thinking I could drill them out, as you suggested... or ebay them, if they did not fit, and wait for someone to see my ad.
>I was pleasantly surprised on Monday that they came and did fit very well.
>I wanted to write to you yesterday, but my internet was down ( along with channels such as CBS and ABC )
>Interestingly enough, i found an email from one of your viewers just now, stating that he had what i need.
>I just sent off an email to him, telling him about my experience.. and am quickly following up to ask you to please remove my wanted ad.
>So now you know that Yellow Mountain Imports does have racks that do fit some of the 70's bakelite racks..
>and you also know that there is a viewer on your site that does have racks that do fit vintage racks.
>Thank you so much for being who you are and doing what you do, that can be a great place for people interested in his marvelous game to network, and get their needs met.
>All the best,
>Lee

Hi Lee,
Glad you found the accessories you were seeking. And thanks so much for your kind letter! The post has been removed from the Accessories Wanted board.
May the tiles be with you, now that you have Helping Hands.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 8, 2010

You never said where to buy old cards

>From: Irene
>Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 8:20 AM
>Subject: old mah jongg cards
>Hi Tom,
>I have read all your postings but I have never seen where one can purchase mah jongg cards from previous years.I have cards dating back to 2007. Do you know where I can purchase cards from years before 2007?
>Thank you,
>Irene
>Irene
>[CONTACT INFO DELETED]

Hi Irene,
It's not exactly a Frequently Asked Question. I guess the answer is "eBay." You can also try posting on the Accessories Wanted BB, and you can try contacting the vendors who are listed in FAQ 4a and who've posted on the Accessories For Sale BB, the Tiles For Sale BB, and the Sets For Sale BB. Getting a complete set of all the cards (if that's what you're up to) won't be easy -- I don't have a complete set myself. I have 15 holes in my collection. Good luck!
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 8, 2010

Regarding column #429

>From: elisegk
>Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 6:12 AM
>Subject: comment on Column #429
>Hand #3
>I woud have kept the tiles for 2009 hand #3 .You already have 7 tiles toward this hand - F, 2009, 2 reds -wtihout counting the jokers. I would have passed one W, the 7 dot and the 8 crak
>thoughts??!!!
>just found this site and am enjoying this strategy section

Hello "elisegk," you wrote:

I woud have kept the tiles for 2009 hand #3 .You already have 7 tiles toward this hand - F, 2009, 2 reds -wtihout counting the jokers.
I count only 5, not counting the jokers. To get 7, I have to count the jokers. F, 2, 9, R, R, J, J.

I would have passed one W, the 7 dot and the 8 crak
>thoughts??!!!
Passing those tiles means you won't be good for high consecutive numbers anymore, but that was only a fallback option anyway. The real problem with going for a 2009 hand should be obvious -- you don't have any soaps at all yet. I never go for 2009 unless I have at least one soap.

just found this site and am enjoying this strategy section
I'm glad! (^_^)

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 7, 2010

Regarding column #438

From: "Chris Schumann"
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 6:47 AM
Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
> My mah-jongg question or comment is:
> You mentioned Washizu mahjong using clear tiles in your recent strategy
> column.
> If you want to try it out, you can make a set to your own liking by
> putting stickers on the *backs* of your tiles. Everybody has a spare
> mahjong set, right?
> Chris

Interesting and good idea, Chris. It does accomplish the same effect. Thanks! BTW, FYI, FWIW, I discussed how to make your own mahjong stickers in FAQ 7T.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 7, 2010

I need "pushers" that work with "vintage" racks, part 2

>From: Anna Rosen
>Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 8:06:46 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>Hi Tom!!
>I saw a question that came up on "pushers" on Jan 23 and I wanted to clarify the usage of this word since it comes up quite often.
>The pushers as you stated come in two versions. The first one is what has been known as the "helping arms" which have been around for quite some time. These attach to the racks but as the lady who asked the question found out, older sets cannot use them.
>In 2003 we came across what were known as the Asian racks and started calling them "sliders" and sold them for American use precisely for cases where the helping arms did not work. The sliders which you can see on our site www.funwithmahjongg.com come in a set of 4 with one being red for East and three other green sliders for the other players. The sliders have a couple of advantages over the helping arms:
>1. They do not attach to the racks so you can go as far as you want on the table with them to either push out the wall or retrieve the wall if you pushed your wall out by mistake.
>2. They fit in every American set case.
>3. They are more durable. The helping arms many times break off after continuous usage.
>4.They are cheaper than the helping arms since they retail for only $12.00 including shipping.
>To use them you simply place your slider in front of yuor rack and build the wall in front of the slider. Simple and effective.
>Have a Great Mah Jongg Day!!
>KMA Industries Inc.
>Anna Rosen

Thanks, Anna. Now that I think of it, you helped clarify this once before.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 4, 2010

Frequently Asked Question #19AA

>From: Marlene
>Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 3:15:52 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>One of the players at our table has 4 3 bams exposed and 4 8 bams exposed and a 1 bam is on the table, I have 2 1 bams in my hand that I am using for my hand, can I call her dead?

You have asked Frequently Asked Question #19AA. Please scroll up and look for the blue and yellow flashing arrow, emblazoned "READ 1ST," like this ). Find the link to FAQ #19 (it's marked with a red, white, and blue flashing arrow, emblazoned "AMERICAN," like this ) and click it.

After you've landed at the FAQ 19 page, please bookmark it so you can easily return to it anytime you have a mah-jongg question. Answers to all of the most frequently-asked questions about American (NMJL) mah-jongg are found in FAQ 19. Please always check the FAQs first, before asking a question. Thanks!

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 4, 2010

Malaysian Mystery, part 8

>From: Philip
>Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 3:15:15 PM
>Subject: Malaysian Mystery Part 8
>Many many thanks Tom, Michael & Edwin - I believe you've finally cracked it.
>So the 'Clown Faces' are Jokers and 'Ting Yong' are the special multipurpose wild tiles. The bird and the mollusc are the Snipe and the Clam - but neither takes the other and both end up in the Fisherman's Basket! The square 'tokens' are East Wind markers and four of the tiles spell out a blessing - like "may the tiles be with you".
>Only the chicks remain unexplained - and the piglets and puppies have legged it to Kuala Lumpur.
>Thanks again
>Philip, currently in a very cold London, but going to Barbados next week for some sun.

Can I claim a redeemable tile? (FAQ 19G2)

>From: GINNY
>Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 12:50:23 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
> It is East turn, the next player has exposed 2-7 cracks & a joker. East, whether she does not need it or over-looked it, throws a 7 crack.
>1. Can the next player pick up the 7 crack to replace the joker in her hand - or is it dead. It, of course is dead.
>2. The next player in line is also trying to get pung of 7 cracks. Can she call for the 7 crack that was thrown to expose her pung
> of seven cracks?
>3. Can anyone at the table call that 7 crack for Mah Jongg?
> I have read the Q&As and did not see this exact situation. It has come up several times at our Mah Jongg table. Thanks for your
>help.

Hi Ginny, you wrote:

I have read the Q&As and did not see this exact situation.
I think you just skipped over it. -- From FAQ 19G (red and italics added):

Q: (1) Can I claim a discarded joker? (2) Can I claim a redeemable tile? (3)...

A1: Once a joker is discarded, it is DEAD. "Down is dead." Nobody can claim it and use it. Period. End of story...

A2: Once a redeemable tile has been discarded, it can only be taken to create a new set for exposure or mah-jongg. It is not permitted to claim it to redeem it for a joker.

For further reading:
RDWW - p. 58 (rule 86a), p. 92
NMJL - p. 19

The red underlined italicized text answers the exact situation you're asking about. If the answer is not clear, please tell me which part of it I need to improve.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 1, 2010

Malaysian Mystery, Part 7

>From: Michael Stanwick
>Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 12:12:13 PM
>Subject: Re: Further tiles identification.
>Philip, I do not know what your 2 'Tim Yong' tokens are in your two pictures provided on the bulletin board. However, the left hand photo has four tiles face up at the bottom left of the photo. The 2nd tile from the left is 'Ting Yong'(the top character is not very clear however). I wondered whether whoever wrote the handwritten card was transcribing what he/she heard and hence misheard 'Tim Yong' for 'Ting Yong'?
>In my latest co-authored article in 'The Playing-card' journal, there is a description and analysis of two types of 'flower' Mahjong games - North China 'Hua Ma Que' ['Flowers Sparrow' = Flowers Mahjong] and Changsha 'Wang Ma Que' ['Kings Sparrow' = Kings mahjong]. These appeared in a book titled 'Maque de jingyan yu jiqiao' [Maque's experiences and skills[ (1941).
>Now in the former game there is a 'ting yong' tile. Thus, if the two characters 'ting' and 'yong' are engraved on a blank tile then that tile can act as any of the tiles from the 'cash'(circles), 'strings[of cash]'(bamboos), 'myriads'[of cash](characters) suits and any tile from the 'directions'(winds) or 'centre', 'fortune', 'blank' (the three honours triad). So this 'ting yong' tile is regarded as a 'multipurpose' tile.
>The so-called "fruit" and "cabbage" may in fact be a peach and a lotus blossom, bud and leaf (I cannot make out the images very clearly). If these are the case then the four tiles may spell out a blessing in symbolic form. Something like 'may you have/find love, complete union and long life together". The peach symbolising longevity and the lotus leaf/bud/flower symbolising complete union.
>Regards
>Michael Stanwick

Malaysian Mystery, Part 6

>From: Michael Stanwick
>Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 3:13:57 AM
>Subject: Re: bird and mollusc
>Hello Philip.
>I think you have done really well to get so far in identifying the groups of tiles in your set.
>Tom is correct about the Immmortal Liu Hai and the three-legged Toad. There are quite a few versions of the tale. For example see http://primaltrek.com/liuhai.html
>The bird and the mollusc could be the folktale/proverb of Chankuo - The Snipe and the Clam. See http://www.asiawind.com/pub/forum/fhakka/mhonarc/msg00869.html
>Usually one tile shows the Fisherman and the 2nd tile shows the Snipe with its beak caught in the Clam. In this set though, it seems the tale might be indicated through just the Clam and the Snipe.
>The Japanese MJ Museum book (now unobtainable) illustrates a few sets depicting these tiles. The sets come from Suzhou and sport characterisitcs that indicate that location of manufacture.
>Regards
>Michael Stanwick

Malaysian Mystery, Part 5

>From: Edwin Phua
>Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 2:07:15 AM
>Subject: Re: Malaysian mystery tiles
>Dear Tom,
>I have seen the messages from Philip regarding some of the tiles from his Malaysian mahjong set.
>Philip's set does not have the 'Fly' jokers (飛, fēi) but have the 'Tim Yong' jokers (聼用, tīngyòng) instead. 聼用 means to 'use for/when calling (for mahjong)'.
>As for the square tokens, these are the tokens that indicate the position of the starting dealer (起莊/起庄 qǐzhuāng). The token is meant to be placed at the corner of the table between the starting dealer (i.e. East), and the North player. Each time the dice is passed from starting North to starting East, a new round starts. The wind indicator is passed on from player to player together with the dice, while the Starting Dealer token always remains at the corner. From my own observations of play in Singapore, the Starting Dealer token is rarely used, and the wind indicator is used in place of the token, and thus only the dice in the possession of the player would be indication of who the dealer is in each hand (as well as a lot of asking "who's the dealer?" during play).
>Best regards,
>Edwin

Malaysian Mystery Part 3¾

>From: Philip
>Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 2:00:29 AM
>Subject: Malaysian Mystery Part 3¾
>Thanks so much Tom for your further elucidation and correcting the confusion about Liu Hai - all done and dusted now. From what you say it would now appear also that the Sun and Moon are another stand-alone pair; as every Chinese knows from personal experience, at each new moon the sun completely swallows the moon - except during a solar eclipse, when the moon gets his revenge!
>I now attach the handwritten card that is in the box. No rules - just a list of the tiles required for 3 Handed Mahjong. This calls for 4 Animals (perhaps the Tiger, Hare, Dragon & Monkey) and "Fish/Man/Priest/Urn" (Fisherman, Fish, Rich Man & Crock of Gold); also 4 Jokers, 4 Roses & 2 'Tim Yong'. The two 'tokens' in the set are single sided just as you saw them in the scan. Note also that this version calls for the use of two suits (72 not 36 as in your version).
>The 200 tile set is clearly the de-luxe Singapore offering, that allows you to play most any version of the game you wish in most any country. A true compendium with its cornucopia of tiles.
>It would be just great if you could contact Tine Willis in Kuala Lumpur again and try and get scans of the pig, piglets, dog, puppies, paddy farmers, etc that do not appear in my scan. Will we ever know the full extent of what is to be found out there?
>Philip.

Hi Philip,
I see that my mailbox contains not only this email from you, but also one from Michael Stanwick and another from Edwin Phua about your tiles. I'm responding to them in the order they're listed in my mailbox (chronological ships that all passed in the night). You wrote:

I now attach the handwritten card that is in the box.
I'm glad you can read it. (^_^) Looks to me like it's describing some game called "Tahjong."

Priest/Urn"
This makes me wonder if I've been thinking of these as "rich man/gold pot" erroneously. Don't remember the original source of that info.

'Tim Yong'. The two 'tokens' in the set are single sided
You'll see in Edwin's email some info about these "mystery tile." Edwin points out that one token is like the Hong Kong original-East marker, and the other is the current-East marker.

Note also that this version calls for the use of two suits (72 not 36 as in your version).
FAQ 2b lists a 2-suit Malaysian 3-player variant. Apparently Malaysian players are constantly experimenting with new rules.

The 200 tile set is clearly the de-luxe Singapore offering, that allows you to play most any version of the game you wish in most any country.
Except the United States, Vietnam, and Japan...

It would be just great if you could contact Tine Willis
It would be great if I had a secretary so I wouldn't have to dig through stacks of old CDs to see if I have his email address.
I have to get ready for work now. Will add Michael and Edwin's latest as soon as I have time.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
February 1, 2010

Color key


Blue = an FAQ, a question that's been asked frequently.
Purple = an angry email from a disgruntled reader.
Green = a happy email from a grateful reader.
Red = a technical support question about a computer game.
Orange = a weird or off-topic email.
Black = none of the above. Regular question or comment.

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