The Mah-Jongg Q & A Bulletin Board

Now then, to come back to what you probably saw as a snag. I hinted that it's questionable whether or not it's a snag. Because in my opinion, the discarded flower does give North the right to say "maj," regardless of the fact that she has to redeem a joker during the process. But there's a disputable NMJL rule that might give West grounds to object - but not for the reason most readers are probably thinking.

For a moment, let's imagine this without West's conflicting claim (only North, let's imagine, wants the tile). In the January 2006 bulletin, the NMJL stated that North's situation (having to redeem a joker during the turn to win) is a self-picked win - not a win on a discard. When I stated this rule in my book (rule 88 on page 66, and then restated on page 116), I flagged it as one of the two objections I have with the official NMJL rules. My original reason for objecting is that I think it's a dirty trick to keep a redeemable tile in the hand, so that you can pounce on a discard and still collect double from everyone. In my book I called this a loophole in the rules.

Since this rule exists, though (and as far as I know, it exists only in the January 2006 bulletin), it's arguable that this rule implies that North's call for the discard is not a maj call. If the loophole didn't exist, the North player could do what I said initially - call "maj," not just "I want that." But since the loophole does exist, the North player should rightly not say "maj." But it's arguable.

Personally, I believe this loophole should not exist. When a player is sitting with a redeemable tile, waiting for one tile to win (to occur simultaneously with redeeming the joker to win), the redeemable tile isn't her winning tile - the wait tile is.

In my opinion, both players should say "maj," and North should get the tile.

That's my opinion, though. The existence of the January 2006 rule implies that North should say "call," not "maj," so West's claim for maj takes precedence - but this is not explicitly stated in the official rules.

In the end, I wasn't able to simplify the matter (far from it!). And since I actually disagree with the rightness of this particular rule, only the NMJL can determine the right answer. One would need to send them the question in writing, along with a self-addressed stamped envelope.

Interesting and meaty question, Barbara! (^_^) May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 15, 2008

About FAQ 22

From: "Oscar Lindberg"
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 4:07 AM
Subject: Comments on FAQ#22 of the Mahjong FAQ - Chinese Official Scoring Explained
> Hi Tom,
> I just read your "FAQ #22. Chinese Official Scoring Explained" on
> http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq/mjfaq22.html.
> The text is really useful and clear on how scoring is performed.
> I think the explanations of the "Prohibition against identical
> patterns" examples is a little bit misguiding though. They are not as
> clear as they could be.
>
> Your explanation is this for Probibition against identical patterns:
> 10.1.5.3. Prohibition against identical patterns
> Once you've used a set to form a particular 2- or 3-set pattern, you
> can't use the same set to form an identical pattern with another set.
> Sometimes referred to as the "non-identical principle."
>
> But then in 10.1.5.3. you write: "The winner might wish to claim that
> the remaining chow, 567B, should be combined with the 345C 456D to
> make a second Mixed Shifted Chows scoring pattern, but the
> non-identical rule prohibits doing this because it uses more than one
> of the sets in the first Mixed Shifted to make a second Mixed Shifted.
> " The problem is not that it uses "more than one" of the sets of the
> first Mixed Shifted, is it? Isn't the problem that the player would
> use the same set in two identical patterns? As you describe it, it
> sounds like that it would have been ok if only one set would be used
> twice for the same pattern.
>
> Then: "However, the 567B can be combined with the 234B to make a Short
> Straight, because that combination only uses one set from the Mixed
> Shifted pattern." Does it really matter, regarding "Prohibition
> against identical patterns" that it uses only one set? Shouldn't it
> say that it is ok, since none of the sets have already been used in a
> Mixed Shifted before?
>
> Then, even later, "To use two sets from the first combination would
> violate the non-identical rule. " I think this would be clearer if it
> said "To use any set from the first combination to create a
> combination of the same type would violate the non-identical rule. "
>
> Simply put: The explanations in examples give the impression that the
> "Prohibition against identical patterns" has something to do with
> using more than one set from a previously counted pattern.
>
> I'm also a bit confused by the "main scoring element" concept. I might
> have missed something, but I do not see why any element would have to
> be special in the hand. This is my understanding of counting the
> score:
>
> 1. Group the hand into sets. These can not be changed later on,
> otherwise the non-separation principle will be broken.
> 2. Start by counting the elements using all sets in the hand, and be
> sure not to count implied elements. I would think that this can be
> performed in decreasing value of the element without ever risking
> getting a lower score that the highest possible.
> 3. Count the elements using two or more sets in turn. Make sure not to
> count implied elements. Keep track of which sets have been used for
> which element types, to prevent breaking the non-identical principle.
> Also keep track of which sets have been used in the elements counted
> in step 3, to prevent breaking the combine-just-once principle. Care
> should be taken in this step, depending on the order of counting
> elements the score might change.
> 4. Count the waits and elements only involving one set. Make sure not
> to count implied elements.
>
> I don't really see why any set would need to stand out as the "main
> scoring element". If there is a point to call one element the main
> scoring element, maybe an explanation would fit in your FAQ#22?
> / Oscar Lindberg

Hi Oscar,
Excellent suggestions all, so I've made those adjustments to the FAQ. Please have a look.
In regards to the "main scoring element," you are correct. I had actually questioned the WMO on that, and didn't get a satisfying answer. Clearly it isn't really a required step, for one thing, and it hardly even matters whether you choose the highest-scoring element as the main element. So I've made that adjustment in the FAQ, too.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 15, 2008

Now I'm wondering what kind of varnish to use

>From: DAMONTT
>Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 2:41 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>I have a bone/bamboo mah-jong set and I keep it in an antique box that was stained the typical China Red color. When I wipe the inside of the box with a damp cloth, the red comes off on the cloth. I am afraid that the red might also come off on the tiles and would like to seal or varnish the inside (not the outside) of the box only to protect the tiles. What kind of a finish would you recommend that won't interact with the bone or the bamboo?
>Suzanne

Hi Suzanne,
I think the inside of your box is unlikely to transfer any red color onto your tiles. ...Unless you store the box in, like, a steam sauna or something? I have at least 3 of those old red antique boxed sets, and none of my tiles have turned red (but I live in Los Angeles, a sort of seaside desert area).

If you varnish the inside of the box, you'll have substantially altered an antique - which could possibly substantially alter its inherent value. (Although the glue-eating pests you think might be inhabiting your tiles could already have done that for you.) This might partially explain why nobody, in the 8 or so years I've maintained this website, has ever posted any information about the best varnish to use on those boxes.

But if you want to investigate the matter further, I'd recommend looking in your local yellow pages for antique shops and antique restorers. If you're nice when you call or visit them, they might well offer you some helpful tips. Good luck! (^_^)
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 13, 2008

Custom engraved joker tiles?

>From: Maxine
>Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 5:54 AM
>Subject: custom mahjongg sets
>Are you able to get custom sets of tiles, where a “name” is imprinted in the jokers, rather than the word joker? I purchased a set from Kwong Fat Cheung like this many years ago but am unable to find them again
>Please let me know
>Thank you
>Maxine Derby
>QPL, Inc & The Image Group
>### Billerica Road
>Chelmsford, MA 01824
>###-###-####
>###-###-#### fax
>qplimage.com

Hi Maxine,
You can find one or two sources for engraving blank joker tiles in Frequently Asked Question #4A, and you'll find the contact information for KFC in FAQ 7Q. Several of the vendors listed in FAQ 4A get their sets from KFC and offer custom jokers, as well. Please scroll up and find the links to the FAQs, above left. Bookmark the page for your future reference.
May the custom tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 13, 2008

Conflicting simultaneous claim - what should we have done?

>From: D. BABASHAK
>Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 2:41 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>Player one discarded a tile, the second player picked up a tile from the wall and called mah jong just as the third player called for the discarded tile. When is a turn deemed to be over? Should player #2 have won the hand? Player #4 then picked up the tile that #2 had to put back and, of course, at that time, knew it was the mah jong tile and then had to break up her hand.
>In the past, we have played that you can go back one turn if you decide to pick up a discarded tile but we never had the wall tile be one that was needed for the next player’s mah jong.
>Thanks for your imput.

Hello, D, you wrote:

Player one discarded a tile, the second player picked up a tile from the wall and called mah jong just as the third player called for the discarded tile.
The third player is out of luck! The second player declared mah-jongg. That's it.

When is a turn deemed to be over?
This is an unrelated question. But FYI, the answer is "when the player has either said mah-jongg or discarded (said the tile's name and put it on the table)."

Should player #2 have won the hand?
Yes. Mah-jongg trumps everything. I realize FAQ 19I doesn't specifically mention this case, but the principle still applies. Mah-jongg always trumps everything. Everything. Always.

Player #4 then picked up the tile that #2 had to put back and, of course, at that time, knew it was the mah jong tile and then had to break up her hand.
It's too bad that's what happened!

In the past, we have played that you can go back one turn if you decide to pick up a discarded tile
I don't follow you. Sounds like you made up a rule. I really recommend that everybody play by the official rules, and not make rules up. See FAQ 3.

but we never had the wall tile be one that was needed for the next player’s mah jong.
Yes, that's a rare circumstance.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 12, 2008

My antique set might have glue-eating pests in it - what to do?

>From: DAMONTT
>Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 8:44 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>I just purchased an old bone/bamboo Mah Jongg set (circa 1920) originally from China. The bone face of the tiles is in very good condition but the bamboo has small pin holes around the area where it joins the bone and when I tap it, a small amount of saw dust comes out. It seems like some pest has gotten into the bamboo and is eating it. My question is: 1.) how can I tell if the pests are still there, and 2.) if the pests are still there, how can I get rid of them? Someone told me to put the tiles in the freezer for a few days but I am afraid that this might damage them.

>From: DAMONTT
>Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 8:48 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>whoops! I forgot to sign my name on the questions about possible pests eating the bamboo on my mah jongg tiles.
>Thanks,
>Suzanne M

Hi Suzanne, you wrote:
the bamboo has small pin holes around the area where it joins the bone and when I tap it, a small amount of saw dust comes out. It seems like some pest has gotten into the bamboo and is eating it.
If the pinholes are only at the joint, it sounds to me like the glue (rather than the bamboo) is what's been eaten (either by time or possibly by pests, although I've never heard of glue-eating bugs in mah-jongg tiles before).
how can I tell if the pests are still there
This is a question for an exterminator. I have no idea.
if the pests are still there, how can I get rid of them? Someone told me to put the tiles in the freezer for a few days but I am afraid that this might damage them.
I share your concern. Some old sets did suffer glue problems, but this is a new glue problem on me! If you really think there are living critters inside your tiles, only an exterminator could give you peace of mind.
May the [pest-free] tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 11, 2008

The advice you gave in your book

>From: vze3cq4g
>Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 12:50 PM
>Subject: etiquette for novices
>Dear Mr. Sloper,
>A new player, I sent for your book The Red Dragon and the West Wind. It’s very good; I doubt the official NMJL rulebook will add much to my understanding, but I’ll send for it since you say so.
>
>My comment refers to page 110 of your book, where you imply that a newbie who struggles too long “with a jumble of disassociated tiles and an inscrutable card” is putting, as you uncharitably put it, winning over “just keeping up.” And that when the experienced players at the table begin rolling their eyes and drumming their fingers, she has violated etiquette and should remember it isn’t all about her, and just get on with things or she won’t be invited back. If the new player pushed herself on them, naturally they will be irked when they find out she doesn’t know how to play. But if they knew she was a newbie and invited her anyway, there is no excuse for their feelings. In either case, there is no excuse for their behavior. I wouldn’t want to be invited back anyway.
>
>It would have been better if you advised the novice to find a real Mah Jongg class (senior and community centers are likely). Then round up other novices to play with every week so they can learn and progress together at their own pace, and not feel rushed and harassed to pass tiles before they understand what they’re doing. That’s no way to learn. Experienced players needing a fourth body at their table will just have to wait.
>LHF, in New Jersey

Hello L,
It's a good thought, and I thank you. I only wish it was that easy. And I fear that I've not stated my reasoning clearly enough.
In my experience (although each person's case is different and could vary considerably from my experience), it's easier to find experienced players than it is to find a mah-jongg class. And it's easier to find three experienced players than it is to gather three willing novices at one's own level.
It's also my experience that very few experienced players have the ability to teach, or the patience to deal with a slow novice player for more than one evening.

The people I play with, for example, are very nice - but they like the game to progress at a reasonable pace. If a new player joins even my nice group and she's so intent on winning that she can't maintain a reasonable pace, my nice friends won't want to play with her a second time. They might not say anything, and they certainly wouldn't drum their fingers. Okay, so they might roll their eyes after a few hours of slow playing.
I guess what I'm saying is that a reasonable pace is normal to the game, regardless of the niceness of the players. To clarify, I have played with some fastfastfast players, and I don't enjoy such games. A reasonable pace is one that gives a player enough time to call a discard.

A player who starts off by taking her sweet time to think, in the company of other novices, will learn how to play slowly. Reasonably speedy play will take a long time to achieve in such a setting, in my opinion. And I fear that the novice group might lose interest in the game before the group reaches the level of reasonably-paced fun that most players find enjoyable.

So it's not my advice to suck it up and play with impatient and unkind experienced players, for the purpose of giving those other players a nice person to win coins from. The reason I advise novice players to sacrifice winning for harmony is not that she's violating the experienced players' etiquette - that's not my intent at all. I've seen many new players lose the chance for repeat play with nice people, and then to lose all interest in the game, due to their trying too hard to win, that's all.

My advice is to learn the game in a way that enables one to think "on her feet," an important ability in mah-jongg. Once the player has come up to speed, she'll enjoy the game and can then have the luxury of finding nice play companions.

I'm making a note, though, to add your suggestions to the book, assuming I get a chance to revise it for a second publishing run. And I'll try to state my point more charitably. (^_^) Mind you, I was that novice “with a jumble of disassociated tiles and an inscrutable card,” struggling to win over “just keeping up” myself, once. I found that the game went more harmoniously if I just went along. And in fact, a player at the World Championship last autumn found herself intimidated by sitting at an actual table with live people. She'd been well accustomed to playing online, but found the experience of dealing with real tiles and real people discouraging. Another player and I gave her the same advice I did in my book - "don't worry about winning, just get comfortable at the table. The winning will come." And it did. She adapted and had a wonderful time. But now I'm rambling on far too long.

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 10, 2008

Those confusing joker rules! (A question of timing)

>From: Bob and Laurie
>Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 9:17 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>This seems to fall in a gray area regarding redeeming jokers from dead hand.
>North makes a second exposure with a joker.
>East (slow to play) attempts to redeem the joker with the natural tile but has not actually pick it up and rack before
>South calls North hand dead and says East cannot claim the joker since no actual exchange was made.
>East felt the joker was hers since she made the intention before hand was called dead.
>Thanks for your help,
>Laurie

Hi Laurie, let's dissect the play:

North makes a second exposure with a joker.
East (slow to play) attempts to redeem the joker

I see a problem already. North hasn't discarded yet, and East hasn't picked a tile from the wall yet. But let's overlook that (maybe you just omitted describing these steps) and continue:

South calls North hand dead and says East cannot claim the joker

She's right, of course. As stated in FAQ 19P.

East felt the joker was hers since she made the intention before hand was called dead.

Oh! So the rules need to take "feelings" into account? I don't think so! (^_^) Besides, simply stating an intention to perform an erroneous or illegal action, either in ignorance that it's illegal, or before it's stated that it's illegal, doesn't make it a rightful or legal action. I don't see any gray area here.

If East had made the redemption, then discarded, and then South declared North dead, at that point it would have been too late to undo East's action. Read FAQ 9 for a discussion on my philosophy of the handling of errors depending on the timing. Whenever an erroneous action can be undone easily, it should be undone, so long as there isn't a rule that prohibits it. (Feelings notwithstanding.)

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 10, 2008

FAQ 19E (Those confusing joker rules! What is a kong?)

>From: Sandra Fruitman
>Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 7:03 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>When playing 2008, can a joker be used as part of the number ? Is it considered a Kong and can you call it like any other kong?

You have asked Frequently Asked Question #19E. Please scroll up and find the links to the FAQs, above left. Click FAQ 19. Bookmark the page for your future reference. Scroll down and find your answer. If the wording of the answer is unclear, please let me know how I can improve the wording for future askers of this same question.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 10, 2008

Frequently Asked Question #19L (Those confusing joker rules)

>From: Ellen and Dean Sanders
>Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 7:30 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>In 2008, line 2, FFFF 2222 0000 08, can more than 1 joker be used in the Kong 0000?
>Thank you,
>E. Sanders

Hello E.,
You have asked Frequently Asked Question #19L. Please scroll up and find the links to the FAQs, above left. Click FAQ 19. Bookmark the page for your future reference. Scroll down and find your answer. If the wording of the answer is unclear, please let me know how I can improve the wording for future askers of this same question.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 9, 2008

When to throw caution to the wind and go for it?

>From: Linda Goodman
>Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 7:06 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>This is really a strategy question. You indicated in a recent column to NOT throw a hot tile (in that case it was a flower) even if it would kill your own hand. There are many times I am not sure whether to throw a tile that an opponent probably needs but might not be his mahjong tile if in fact I am only one tile away so that it is my only choice of what to throw if I want to keep the chance of winning myself. Do you have advice how to evaluate whether to be offensive or defensive in this situation?

Hi Linda,
It's called "taking a gamble" or "taking a risk." The advice I gave, not to discard the hot tile, is general advice, assuming that:

Clearly, if you're waiting for mah-jongg, and the only tile you have to discard is hot, you've got a decision to make. You don't have to kill your hand just because that's what I advised in a column. You can throw caution to the wind and go for it. I've done it lots of times. Sometimes I've won, and sometimes I've paid the penalty. And sometimes another player has gotten mad at me because it was clearly a hot tile, and American rules say that all players must pay the winner.

I don't really have any advice for you. It's like Clint Eastwood said in that movie: "Do you feel lucky?"*

Whether or not you feel lucky is something only you can determine for yourself. It's called "taking a gamble," and that's the name of the game.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 9, 2008

* Okay, so I changed the line a little. The exact line just didn't quite seem appropriate somehow.

Where can I get money-suited cards?

>From: Colin Bisasky
>Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:13 AM
>Subject: matiao cards
>Tom,
>Dunno if this is in your area of expertise, but where can you find a deck of Ma Tiao cards, or money-suited cards or whatever, as well as directions on how to play them?
>---Colin

Hi Colin,
As I said in FAQ 11b, you can download a print-it-yourself deck right here.
http://www.sloperama.com/mahjongg/printit.htm
...Or you could enlarge a photo in FAQ 11b and print that...
The only place where I've found pre-printed money-suited cards is Tianjin, among the tourist shops in the old part of town. I've never found them for sale anywhere else.

And as I said in FAQ 11b, I don't have a source of rules in English.

There's one remote possibility. Last year there was a lot of historical discussion on the rec.games.mahjong newsgroup, but it died out after the level of discourse degenerated into silly apophenia (as I declared in the thread "Mahjong Cash : Real or Mistaken Translation?" on Tues, Nov. 6, 2007). Along with the nonsense, real information and sources flew so fast one could barely keep up. I'm fairly certain that nobody revealed any source of rules for money-suited cards, either in English or in Chinese. I mention this only because it's possible that I might have missed it, in which eventuality it might be worth your while to dig through it all (skipping past all the spam that's sprung up like weeds in the interim) to find out - or to pop your head up there to see if anybody has found anything.

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 9, 2008

Is this a "missing link" or "hybrid" variant?

>From: MKAswWA
>Cc: MKAswWA; ArnoldA100
>Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 3:03 PM
>Subject: Mah Jong Question - Odd Hong Kong Game from Macau Home Game
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>I played a 13-Tile Mah Jong game, called "Chinese Mah Jong," on its lengthy typed instructions. A friend, middle aged white American, who introduced it, said she had learned it in Puerto Rico, and it had been designed by her friend, based on a game her friend's family had played in Macau. The instructions bore this lady's (married?) name (not Asian-sounding or Portuguese) and date -- 1997.
>I am very interested in finding out if this was some kind of well known hybrid game that was partly old Classical Chinese and partly modern Hong Kong.
>We used a Fan/Payments Scale sort of like the one on Page 137 of Jelte Rep's Book, except it grouped 4,5,6 & 7 on the first Laak (shelf?) and then put 8 & 9 on the next higher one, and then 10 & 11 on the next, and 12 & more on the highest.
>Discarder, however, did Not pay double, but rather East Wind paid and got double.
>Winner only was paid, as per Hong Kong rules, except for Kong Payments of 50 Cents for Open and $1.00 for Closed to any played who exposed or declared them during the game.
>1 "Table" was 20 Cents, 2 - 40 Cents, Etc.
>The Combinations looked mostly like HK Old Style or Cantenese, except for a Hand called Pico Pico, which was an All Chows Hand Having All Terminal Pungs, no suit limitations & No Paired Terminal Requirements, which was probably greatly over-ranked at 8.
>Pure Hand was 8 and 13 Wonders was 10.
>Other Fan looked "normal". Ex: All Chows 1; All Pungs 3; "Mixed Colors" (All One Suite + Honors) 3, etc.
>Also, which perturbed another lady greatly, there was no procedure or points given for Stealing the Kong.
>So the real question is: Should I report this to some society as some great "missing link" game? Or is it very common to find many hybrid or mutant games with partly Classical and Partly Hong Kong characteristics?
>Also, is it a very well-observed rule that the "Laak" levels that Rep talks about in The Great Mahjong Book, be clustered in 3's, as in 456, and 789? After having read his book (which is terrific) I sort of felt uncomfortable that this lady had not so clustered her "Tables". Plus, I now feel a little "short changed" that when I hit 7, I was still stuck down on the first Laak.
>I have learned much from your site and I do enjoy it. Sorry for the great length of this message. Hope it doesn't overwhelm you and that you can help me. Thank You.
>Marlene

Hi Marlene,
Welcome. You wrote:

A friend... said... it had been designed by her friend, based on a game her friend's family had played in Macau.
Got it. A game designed by a friend of a friend, based on another friend's home rules.

I am very interested in finding out if this was some kind of well known hybrid game
You just said it was designed by a friend of a friend. Or was that a typo...? Maybe you meant it was your friend's friend's very best effort to thoroughly document her friend's home rules?

... Pico Pico, which was an All Chows Hand Having All Terminal Pungs...
I assume that was a typo. How could you have a pung in an all chow hand?

which was probably greatly over-ranked at 8.
8 tables? 8 fan? 8 laaks?

Should I report this to some society as some great "missing link" game?
Well, if this is a game that was designed by a friend of a friend, the chances of its being anything other than a made-up rule set aren't too great. Even if your friend's friend made her very best effort to document her friend's home rules from Macau, it's quite possible that that's just the way it was played in that one Macau household. I imagine that at the time your friend's friend's friend lived in Macau, the game was played in 100 different ways in 200 households.

That said, all I have to go on is what you've told me. There's no "society" to report this discovery to, per se. If someone else contacts me with a report of an identical or nearly identical set of rules, also with roots in Macau, then I would probably list it in FAQ 2b, if it was significantly different from HKOS. And to me it doesn't sound significantly different from HKOS.

But if you want to spread the word and get more feedback, you could post the description on news:rec.games.mahjong ( http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.mahjong/topics). Just make sure not to put too much stock in the responses - there are some serious scholars there, but also some... um, noisemakers, shall we say.

Or is it very common to find many hybrid or mutant games with partly Classical and Partly Hong Kong characteristics?
Yes, it is. If you have a lot of patience, you could dig through the old posts on the newsgroup (Google has a record of them all the way back) to learn about some. One thing you're sure to be asked is for a solid timeframe. During what decade did your friend's friend's friend live and play in Macau - things like that. Without a certainty that these rules can be definitively traced to around or before the 1920s, it's probably not going to generate a lot of interest from the scholarly community.

is it a very well-observed rule that the "Laak" levels that Rep talks about in The Great Mahjong Book, be clustered in 3's, as in 456, and 789?
Perlmen and Chan's laak system is 6-7-8 fan (1 laak), 9-10-11 (2 laaks), 12-13-14 (3 laaks), 15-16-17-18-19 (4 laaks), 20+ fan (5 laaks).
Amy Lo describes a different naming system. 4-5 fan is "moon woo," 6-7 fan is "seung lart," 8-9 fan is "sam lart," 10-11 fan is "sei lart," and 12+ fan is "ung lart."
That should tell you that the answer to your question, in short, is "no." There's no universal standard.

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 7, 2008

Frequently Asked Question #19E (what is a kong?)

>from: "edward & lisa guerin" (lag8848)
>sent: wednesday, may 07, 2008 11:51 am
>subject: [no subject]
>> the new 2008 american mah jongg card has a quints 1123 11111 11111 (any 3 suits, and 3 consec. nos. pr. any no. pr. & quits match). this is very confusing, can the 1123 be picked up and exposed. thank you

Hello Edward & Lisa,
A "1123" is the same thing as a "2008" or a "NEWS." Read Frequently Asked Question #19E to find out how this sort of grouping is handled.
You can link to the FAQs above left. Click FAQ 19. Bookmark the page for your future reference, then scroll down and find your answer.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 2, 2008
NO SHOUTING, PLEASE! TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS CONSIDERED "SHOUTING." THE ONLY PERSON ALLOWED TO SHOUT HERE IS ME, CONSARNIT! ANY SHOUTED EMAILS WILL BE CONVERTED TO ALL LOWER CASE.

How to deal with a slow player?

>From: Tomer, Arlene E
>Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 7:01 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is: In my group of players, we have a few that are especially slow. How can I get them to play faster. They hem and haw on discarding a tile because of the exposures other players have.
>Thank you
>Arlene
>This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or
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>which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended
>recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified
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Hi Arlene,
I wrote about this in Column 350, but this is such a frequently asked question that I'm going to append this email to FAQ 9. But be advised that you probably won't like my answer.
The only way to deal with a slow player is to talk to her about it, openly, in the group setting. It isn't possible to get her to speed up without letting her know that you want her to. I have given this answer to a number of people before, and invariably they've responded "oh dear, I can't do that." That reaction doesn't make any sense to me, but that's usually been the reaction I've gotten.

First you have to bring up the subject of playing speed to the entire group. I recommend this be done at the beginning of a session, before play has begun. It's possible that you'll get a clear majority supporting your position - if so, then the slow player will see clearly that she must speed up her play else she'll be the odd man out.

It's also possible that you'll discover that you're in the minority - that the majority supports a relaxed atmosphere, one without pressure for speedy play. If that happens, then you know that you have to adapt to their mode of play if you want to stay with the group.

The third possibility is that two of you want a speedier game and two of you want time to think. Your possible courses of action in such a case are limited. You can (a) quit the group and seek players who play at your speed, (b) adopt a more patient attitude, or (c) you can nag the slow players and thereby eventually cause the group to break up from all the discord, meaning, in effect, you're going with option (a).

No matter what you do - speak up or hold your peace, it's vital that you be patient. Even if you get a slow player to agree to speed up, you need to find a way to be gentle when urging her to make her play. I like Marge Simpson's phrase: "This can be fixed with some gentle nagging."

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 7, 2008
"When you email me, I own it." Answers I give are given only in this public forum. Emailing me a question constitutes implied consent for the question and answer to be given on this bulletin board. If you do not want your email disseminated, distributed or copied, then I cannot answer your question for you, and you will have to get your question answered somewhere else.

Nihon no riichi dora majan shitsumon, part 2

>From: Marissa Vincenti
>Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:26 AM
>Subject: Oya? O-Yeah!
>>I assume you already knew all the above.
>Yes, that I did know...thank God!
>I just didn't realize that the oya always stayed "east" regardless of which round was current. Somewhere we had made the mistake that the oya's wind had to match the round, and thus he/she "became south" when that round began. Whoops.
>Thanks! :-) And I'm checking with Yakitori Online about the north wind rules!
>Best,
>Marissa

Hi Marissa,
So when you're the dealer in the East round, you're "double east." Which means that if you pung the East wind, you'll earn not just 1 fan but 2.
You can be "double south" during the south round (meaning that if you pung the South wind, you earn 2 fan) - but you're not the dealer when you're "double south."
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 7, 2008

Why Dragon and Phoenix?

>From: Colin Bisasky
>Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:41 AM
>Subject: "dragon" tiles
>Dear Tom,
>I noticed--judging by the Mah Jong Museum's pictures--that the usual red/green dragons mean center/prosperity. But it says that some sets use dragon/phoenix characters. What is the reason/significance of this?
>---Colin

Hi Colin,
In FAQ 7e, there's a discussion about what the C and F on dragon tiles stand for (I prever "Center" and "Fortune" since that corresponds with C and F). And if you watch closely the following illustrations from FAQ 7e, you'll see the Dragon and Phoenix:

        

And in FAQ 11e you'll find a discussion of early mah-jongg sets that included dragon/phoenix dragon tiles.

Beyond that, I have little to say as to the whys or wherefores for the archaic use of the dragon and phoenix.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 7, 2008

Nihon no riichi dora majan shitsumon ga futatsu arimasu

>From: Marissa Vincenti
>To: Tom Sloper
>Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 6:32 AM
>Subject: South round Oya and 3-player North wind question
>Hi, Tom!
>Our group is coming along with learning Japanese mahjong, so thank you very much for your help!
>Two questions:
>1. In the East round, I know that the Oya is the player who is East, but when the South round begins, is the Oya position given to the person who is South? I saw on tenhou.net that even in the South round, the Oya is East wind-- is this correct?
>2. In 3-player, I thought the North wind was only a "flower" tile, and could only be used in a 13 Impossible hand. However, twice now on tenhou.net I've seen a player win on another player's declared North wind. In one case, the tile completed a pon of Norths and, in the other a pair for 7 Pairs. Could you explain more about this? Can the Norths be used in the hand like any other wind in 3-player, or are there certain conditions for their use in a hand? And do the North winds count as dora if they are used in the hand and not declared?
>Thanks, Tom! :-)
>Marissa

Konnichiwa, Marissa    m(-_-)m

Dealer rotation and round rotation are two separate things that go on concurrently. Imagine that you are the player sitting near the East wall of a janso in Tokyo. Imagine that you are (coincidentally) the oya (East/Dealer) when the first round (coincidentally called "East") begins. Follow? You (Marissa) are in Tokyo, sitting at the eastmost seat, and your role is East, and it's the East round.

After you've finished playing that hand, IF you (Marissa) were NOT the winner, then the deal passes to the player to your right. This player, who is seated in the northernmost seat at the table (let's call him "Kita-san"), was South when you dealt. But NOW, since the deal has passed to him, HE is East ("oya").

He's sitting in the northernmost chair (as anyone looking down on the seat from orbit could easily tell, if it wasn't for the inconvenient imposition of a roof and ceiling), but you all now regard him as "East." YOU (Marissa) are not East anymore. Yes, I know you're sitting in the easternmost chair, and you were "East" ("oya") five minutes ago, but the times have changed. NOW you are "North." But the ROUND... IS STILL "EAST."

I assume you already knew all the above. If you did not, well, it's time again for you and all your playing group to forget everything you thought you knew and start over again. Ryan Morris' page explains the Japanese rules - and now there's also a nice description on ... I think it's the Danish mahjong association's website. See FAQ 4b or look in any column about the Japanese game.

Anyway... The round stays "east" until all four players have finished dealing. Just before the end of the east round, the player at your left is dealing (s/he is "east"), and you are "south."

But as soon as that dealer loses the deal, the east round ends. Now YOU (Marissa) are EAST again, but now it's the SOUTH round. The dealer (oya) is always "east." So I think now you have a complete picture that answers your question? Sorry for the longwinded explanation - I wasn't sure how longwinded it needed to be.

No, I cannot explain tenhou's 3-player rules. Sorry! You could probably get an answer if you post your question on yakitorionline, though. www.yakitorionline.com

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 6, 2008

How do we score Heavenly Hand, won by the dealer, in American mah-jongg?

>From: "Lonnie Divack" (ldivack)
>Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 4:11 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>> My mah-jongg question or comment is: When someone wins mah jongg
>> after all of the charlestons and is east how is one payed and how is
>> the better paid? Thank you

Hi Lonnie,
There is no special "heavenly hand" award in American mah-jongg. East won on plain old everyday self-pick.
There is no extra payment to East (dealer) in American mah-jongg.
See the back of your card for how self-pick is paid.
See FAQ 19W (above left) for how bettors are paid.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 6, 2008

I want an instructional video!

>From: DOWISLAND
>Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 2:32 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>Where could I buy or rent an instructional video demonstrating Mah Jongg play.

Nowhere, until I can raise the capital to create one.
(Caveat: or are you saying you want to learn the Chinese Classical rules? The variant that very few people play today - as discussed yesterday with Colin (below)? If so, there's a very basic video on YouTube - see FAQ 4b, above left. But until I can raise the funding, there is no American MJ video.)
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 6, 2008

Where do I find the prerequisite information to understand the Window of Opportunity rule?

>From: Karen Pitner
>Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 2:17 AM
>Subject: Window of Opportunity question
>You stated that the Window of Opportunity closes when a tile is discarded (when the tile touches the discard floor or has been named in full). Some of our players, when discarding, call out an abbreviated name for the tile (i.e. red, for red dragon). If this is done before the tile touches the discarded floor, is the Window of Opportunity closed?
>Karen Pitner
>(███) ███-████ home
>(███) ███-████ cell
>"Believe that your life is worth living and your beliefs will help create the fact."

Hi Karen,
You're supposed to use the abbreviated names in American mah-jongg.
I'm glad you found the Window of Opportunity rule (FAQ 19C). Now all you need to do is read FAQ 19A to get the answer to your question.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 6, 2008

Which variant? (FAQ 2a - was: The dead wall in HKOS)

>From: Colin Bisasky
>Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 12:28 AM
>Subject: Chinese Classical: Anybody...?
>Hello again, Tom,
>Thanks for answering my question about the HKOS dead wall.
>I wanted to teach a couple of friends Chinese Classical and a thought occured to me: do people really still play classical these days? I see that Millington's book's most recent printing is 2003, so somebody must be playing it! If hardly anybody plays Classical these days, I might as well teach my friends HKOS or something...I am assuming HKOS is still played, since it was featured first in Amy Lo's book (good book! thank you for including it on your website!) So yeah, who really plays Classical anymore?
>Best regards,
>Colin Bisasky

Hi Colin,
Sure, there are folks who play CC. But not in any large organized way. There aren't any CC tournaments, and although there are a few online CC games, those aren't the most-used programs. And yes, HKOS is very widely played, especially in Hong Kong and by Hong Kong expats.
I wrote FAQ 2a expressly for the purpose of helping people choose which variant to play. I think you ought to give it a try.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
Cinco de Mayo, 2008

Mishaps while konging (follow-up)

Hi Chico,
On re-reading your Q (below) this morning, I realized another way your question might be interpreted:

What is the rule if the tile is lacking?
I think you mean "what's the penalty for having too few tiles in the hand," is that right? As with yesterday's answer, I need to know what mahjong rules you're playing by. I assume you do not play American-style mahjong, but which rules do you play? If you don't know what to call your ruleset, you could tell me the name of the author of the book you use as your mahjong bible, or the website you learned from. Standing by to answer your questions, once you've given me enough information about the game you play...

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 4, 2008

From: JOMOMMANOW
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: mah jongg question
Thank you Tom for your quick response...I'm a beginner and your site has helped me immensely...keep up the good work.
Jo ann

Mishaps while konging

>From: chico empleo
>Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 5:34 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>what is the rule if the player forget to get a replace tile after declaring a kong?
>What is the rule if the tile is lacking?
>Thank you.

Hi Chico, you asked:

what is the rule if the player forget to get a replace tile after declaring a kong?
Well, Chico, it depends on a number of variables. First, which kind of mahjong are you playing? Second, how much time has elapsed since you forgot to take the replacement (what further events have occurred since then)? Third, are you in a tournament or high-stakes situation? Fourth, are your opponents highly competitive rule-sticklers?

What is the rule if the tile is lacking?
I'm not sure what you mean. You mean the player made a kong with the last tile from the wall, so there is no available replacement? Is that your question?

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 3, 2008

From the Tiles Wanted bulletin board (FAQs 7Q & 7R)

>From: Merrey Lynn Luke
>Email: merreylynn中cox.net
>Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:05 AM
>Subject: Tiles Wanted
>Material: Bamboo top
>Color(s): white
>Dimensions: 4/8"h/7/8"L/6/8w
>Tile(s) wanted: 8 blank (jokers or any blank
>URL (internet address) of online photos:
>Merrey Lynn
>[Street address omitted for security reasons - Webmaster]
>Scottsdale, AZ 85255
>480.473.1014

Hi Merrey Lynn,
Please read FAQs 7Q & 7R. I recommend you just get any tiles you can that match your bone/bam tiles, and sticker them.
Good luck getting the tiles you want - if a seller wants to contact you, s/he can do that by email or phone (you can provide your street address once you've made contact with a seller).
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 3, 2008

Frequently Asked Question #19L (those confusing joker rules)

>From: JOMOMMANOW
>Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 8:11 AM
>Subject: mah jongg question
>Tom...
>can I use 3 jokers for a pung or 4 jokers for a kong???
>thank you,
>jo ann
> Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.
>Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

Hello Jo Ann,
You are the second person to have asked Frequently Asked Question #19L in the past week (it was also asked by Penny on Wednesday, below). Please scroll up and find the links to the FAQs, above left. Click FAQ 19. Bookmark the page for your future reference. Scroll down and find your answer. If the wording of the answer is unclear, please let me know how I can improve the wording for future askers of this same question.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
May 3, 2008

The blind pass

>From: letstawk
>Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:48 PM
>Subject: mah jongg question
>Hi Tom, Thank you for answering me so promptly.  I have another question that I did not find on the faq page.  When you steal on the first left or last right of the charleston can you look at the tile you are passing away?  I believe you cannot, isn't that why it is called a blind pass.  One of my players always looks at the tile she is stealing to pass to me.  She claims it is allowed. Can you clear this up please?  Thanks again, Yvonne (*.*)

Hi Yvonne,
I wrote about this in my book, but it looks like I never got around to adding it to FAQ 19 yet.
You wrote:

>I believe you cannot, isn't that why it is called a blind pass.

You believe correctly. The problem is how to deal with it in your game. I recommend you read FAQ 14. Your group needs to take a vote - go with the official rules (in which case your group needs to have a copy of ... you know... the official rules), or go with your friend's "peek pass" table rule.

Please don't try to force your friend or correct her. See FAQ 9 - harmony is important. A vote is one good way to achieve it. A lot of groups use unofficial table rules quite harmoniously. It only becomes a problem when a new player joins the game and is not informed of the group's table rules.

By the way, I also recommend you read my column 353.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
April 30, 2008

The dead wall in HKOS

>From: Colin Bisasky
>Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:43 PM
>Subject: HKOS: dead wall
>Hi Tom,
>I was wondering, out of the various sources for Hong Kong/Old Style, what is supposed to happen when the "dead wall" of 14 tiles has been used up, through everybody replacing flowers and drawing supplement tiles for kongs? Certainly I'm sure that's mathematically possible...I guess if all 8 flowers were replaced and 6 kongs were "konged" it would be used up, right?

Hi Colin,
You assume that the 14-tile dead wall is set aside at the beginning of the game, and then never replenished while people replace flowers and kongs from it.
That would defeat the entire purpose of the 14-tile dead wall!
The HKOS books don't discuss this particular detail, but there are only two ways replacement tiles can be taken without negating the concept of a 14-tile dead wall:
a. Replenish it. That is to say, if nobody goes mahjong, then the game ends when there are exactly 14 tiles remaining unpicked in the wall. (The usual way to do this is to not bother making a break between the dead and live walls until the wall is getting short.)
b. Set the 14-tile wall aside, and draw replacement tiles from the back end of the live wall.
I imagine there are people who do option B, but most people go with option A... If they use flowers at all (many Hong Kong players don't).
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
April 30, 2008

Followup to Penny's post, below

Penny,
I just had an afterthought about your question (below).
You said you "picked" the 1D. Does that mean you took it from the wall? Because you never have to make an exposure if you make a complete set all by yourself. See FAQ 20A (maybe I need to add this to FAQ 19). Maybe that's what your friend was saying you couldn't do.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
April 30, 2008

Those confusing joker rules!

>From: Penny Montifinese
>Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:53 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:  if I have 2 jokers in my hand, can I pick a single discarded tile to make a pong?  When playing, I picked 1 dot & used the 2 jokers in my hand & exposed as a pong (all 1 dots).  Someone at table called me on this & told me it was not legal.  We could not find the rule on back of card.  Thank you.

Hi Penny,
I wish I had a penny for every time somebody asked me this question. (^_^) You asked:

if I have 2 jokers in my hand, can I pick a single discarded tile to make a pong?
This is Frequently Asked Question #19L: "Do I have to have a natural tile to expose?" Please scroll up and find the links to the FAQs, above left. Click FAQ 19. Scroll down and find your answer. If the wording of the answer is unclear, please let me know how I can improve the wording for future askers of this same question.

Someone at table called me on this & told me it was not legal.
Someone was making up rules on the spot. She should buy a copy of the official rulebook. Even better, someone should buy her my book! (^_~)

We could not find the rule on back of card.
Of course not. There isn't enough space on the back of the card to list rebuttals to frequently made up rules. That's what FAQ 19 is for. I recommend you bookmark the web page for the next time she makes up a rule. Assuming you still don't have a rulebook.

May the tiles be with you, Penny.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
April 30, 2008

The notation system in the weekly column

From: "Dee Dee Quinn" (deedeeq)
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 6:11 PM
Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A

> My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>
> I am new to this website.  I am reading your column #359 from April
> 13, 2008, and I just don't understand how to read the diagram to find
> out what happened.  Is there some way I can know what you passed and
> what you received at each pass?  If so, how?  (In the second row
> [labeled Received], there are 13 arrows pointing down and 8 tiles
> shown.  I just don't understand how to read it.)
>           Thank you,
>                      Dee Dee Quinn

Hi Dee Dee,
Take another look at Column #359. The first sentence says, "Anatomy of a random 2008 hand, using the notation system described in column #356." And the words "column #356" are underlined. That underline is a subtle internet hint called a "clickable link." That means that if you CLICK the underlined "column #356," you'll go directly to the column that described the notation system in detail. If, after you read column #356, you still don't understand something about the notation system, I'll gladly explain it using different phraseology. All I ask is that you try reading column #356 first, and quote me the part of the column that's unclear, so I know exactly where I went wrong explaining it the first time. Standing by...
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
April 29, 2008

The etymology of "pie" (Frequently Asked Question #19W)

>From: letstawk
>Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 6:18 PM
>Subject: Mj question
>
>Hi, I have been Mah Jongg for over thirty years and was curious about something that perhaps you can tell me.  Why is it called pi/pie when you lose all of your money in playing.  I know mathematically pi is 3.14 but what is the connection to mah jongg?  My whole group would like to know.  I emailed someone else and they suggested that I ask you, so please help if you can. Thank You, Yvonne

Hi Yvonne,
You can find my guess as to the answer by clicking the FAQ 19 link, above left. (I recommend you bookmark the page for future questions.) When you get to FAQ 19, look for Q&A "W." (Hint: it has nothing to do with the mathematical constant π=3.14159...)
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
April 29, 2008

What's the difference between an American set and an American Western set?

>From: Karen
>Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:44 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>Hi there.
>I'm about start meeting a group for Mah Jong next week and wanted to buy a set.  I just did an exhaustive search on the internet to try and find the answer.  My question is:  is there a difference between buying a Mah Jong set that is American vs. American Western?  The two terms seem to be used interchangeably but don't want to buy the wrong set.
>Thanks.
>Karen

Hi there.
Since there is no mah-jongg terminology police enforcing what words all mah-jongg sellers should use, my answer to your question is "I don't know - why don't you ask the seller?"

I assume you've already read FAQs 7a & 7b (above left). What you really need to know before buying a set is whether it...

...Has enough flowers and jokers for your kind of mah-jongg. How many flowers and jokers do you need for your kind of mah-jongg? (If you don't know, see FAQ 2b.) Make sure the set has all those before you buy it.
...Is marked with Western indices in the upper left corners. I assume your players don't all read Chinese? Make sure the set has Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, 4...) in the corners of all the craks, and that there are Roman letters (E, S, W, N) in the corners of all the wind tiles, at the very least.
...Comes with racks (if your players expect racks).

And that's pretty much all you probably need to know before clicking the "Buy now" button. Pretty sure these tips are in FAQ 7j too...
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
April 28, 2008

Please explain "robbing a kong"

From: "Christine Eddy Taylor"
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 10:44 AM
Subject: robbing a kong
> Please explain the plays in "robbing a kong" to woo.
> Thank you...
> cet©asis,com

Hi Christine, it goes like this:

Player A has an exposed pung. Let's say it's 1B.
Player B is waiting to make mah-jongg, and 1B would do the trick. S/he knows there's only one more 1B, but doesn't know if it's in someone's hand or in the wall.
Player A picks a tile from the wall - it's 1B. S/he uses it to promote the pung to a kong. "Kong," s/he says, putting the fourth 1B with the 1B pung.
Player B says, "Hu!" S/he exposes the hand and takes the 1B to complete it.

You didn't mention which kind of mah-jongg you play, so I can't get any more specific than that.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
April 26, 2008

Multiple repeat "Find Players" post

>From: Bubbigal溌aol.com
>Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:00 PM
>Subject: Find Players/Teachers
>Location (city and zip code):  Monroe, NJ
>M  y kind of mah jongg is:  American
>We are looking for a weekday afternoon game (once a week) vicinity of Cranbury, East Windsor, Hightstown or Monroe.  Experienced or beginner players   Teacher available - no charge.
>Contact Bubbigal溌aol.com

Hi Bubbigal,
Look, this is the third time in the past four months you've tried to multiple-post on my Find Players bulletin board. If you go to http://www.sloperama.com/majexchange/findplayer.htm and search the page for "bubbigal" or "Monroe" or "New Jersey," you'll find your post:

From: Bubbigal中aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 11:12 AM
Subject: Find Players/Teachers
Location:
My kind of mah jongg is: American Mah Jongg - I am looking for players in Monroe Township, Cranbury, Hightstown, or vicinity New Jersey. I am also qualified to teach
Thank you for any help in this matter.

It's not like your email address is so common I'd forget that I'd ever seen it before! (^_^) So when you tried to post another announcement on December 31, I emailed you back and told you that you already had a post on that bulletin board, and that there is a limit of one post to a person.

Then you tried again on January 10, with a little typo in your location. Giving you the benefit of the doubt (maybe you'd moved from Monroe Township to "Mpnoe"), I again reminded you that there's a limit of one announcement per person, and you replied:

From: Bubbigal溌aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Find Players/Teachers
Sorry - I didn't know I had an advertisement already.  Monroe and Monroe Township is the same.
Awaiting some replies.
Thanks for your help.

In fact, after that exchange, I decided maybe I was letting the board get too long, so I deleted all posts more than 12 months old. 12 months seems reasonable.

So here's the thing. The no multiple posts rule is clearly stated on that board. And your old post is clearly visible on that board. Your old post is dated July 25, 2007. It'll be one year old just 3 months from now. If you can just wait three months, I'll permit you to post again, then I'll delete all posts older than 12 months again. Okay?

May some players be with you, Bubbigal.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
April 23, 2008

Any readers here think the "Find Players" list should be shorter? Should it run for only 6 months - 12 months too long? I could simply let it go back to the way it used to work (people could post anything there without having to go through me) - but then that would open the floodgates to spam too, and I think that would make it less valuable for those seeking players. Would welcome the feedback...

Should we buy a video?

>From: (Lana) looky.lou
>Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:57 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>Several of the ladies who play regular NMJL mahjongg are now wanting to learn how to play Chinese-style mahjongg. What's the smartest  way to learn how to play? Should we just use the instructions in the second half of your book "The Red Dragon and the West Wind" or should we buy a video? I've watched a couple of UTube-type videos but I can't understand exactly what they're saying. Any help would be greatly appreciated. And, after learning the Chinese style rules does that make it more difficult to play the regular NMJL mahjongg?

Hi Lana,
I love your adventurous spirit! (^_^) Let me take your questions a bit at a time...

wanting to learn how to play Chinese-style mahjongg.
As much as I'd love to sell you my book, the first thing I recommend is that you choose which Chinese game you want to learn. Because there are at least 20 different Chinese variants. FAQ 2a is designed to help you choose. If you have someone in your circle of friends with ties in Taiwan, and you learn Chinese Official (Mahjong Competition Rules, AKA MCR), then you wouldn't be able to play with that friend. But if what you want is the simplest possible rules, and your choice wouldn't be excluding any friends you know of, then the Hong Kong style is the simplest. But once you've learned any Asian variant, it'll be real easy to upgrade to MCR.

What's the smartest  way to learn how to play? Should we just use the instructions in the second half of your book "The Red Dragon and the West Wind"
You can start more cheaply than that, by using my FAQs 10 & 20 to get started. Then when you're ready to actually keep score, you definitely need to choose one variant. My book describes the rules used in the vast majority of international competitions - and I often write about that international variant in my strategy column.

or should we buy a video?
Since I haven't made that video yet, you can't buy it! (^_^) I mean, what video would you buy? (Unless you can speak Japanese, that is, and then of course you'd be learning Japanese mah-jongg.) Sorry, I guess I was ranting. If you know of an English-language instructional video for sale, please tell me its title.

I've watched a couple of UTube-type videos
I'm only aware of one, the one by the bearded guy. I'd love to add a link to the other one, if anybody wants to tell me its address...

but I can't understand exactly what they're saying.
If the video is in English, you'll probably understand it better after trying to play using my FAQs 10 and 20. (If it's not in English, can't help, sorry!)

after learning the Chinese style rules does that make it more difficult to play the regular NMJL mahjongg?
Pshaw! (As my grandmother used to say.) Absolutely not! You'll become a better player.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
April 22, 2008

Aging a set by the F&J count (was: Why five racks?)

>Subject: RE: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>From: stefan [eriamel@
>Date: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:00:18 AM
>Hi Tom,
>No, thank You!! :)
>That is a brilliant answer, and it makes perfect sense of course. (I'm somewhat ashamed now that I didn't see that one myself)
>I must confess I'm so used to playing with the stick money and racks that change hands all the time (3 black, 1 red),
>that I hadn't really looked on the racks as 'personal' items yet :)
>
>Btw, thumbs up for this site; I really learned a LOT here already!!
>
>There's one more thing that confuses me slightly;
>in your weekly from march 25, 2007 you wrote something on dating your set with aid of the amount of flowers and jokers in it:
>http://www.sloperama.com/mahjongg/column311.htm
>So mine is catalin and has (besides the usual tiles):
>6 jokers, 20 flowers, 2 blanks (spare, nor dragons)
>So I figured, since it has 6 real imprinted jokers that this would date it somewhere between 1966-1968
>(even though it has way too many flowers for that period :))
>
>So that's fine and all, and then I go browse some pictures of sets at the mahjongmuseum.com and I come across this one:
>http://www.mahjongmuseum.com/mj206.htm
>Now this set doesn't have anything to do with my set whatsoever, but it does say on top "Made in China Circa 1930"
>..but I can see two jokers in there!? that would date it 30 years younger right?
>
>For the record, I'm fine with my set coming from the 60's, I'm just wondering how he 'knows' that that set is from the 30's?
>and since you wrote: "As far as I know (I'd be delighted to learn differently, if a reader knows my present knowledge to be incorrect), no mah-jongg sets came with jokers until the NMJL first started requiring them in 1960-61." I thought I might as well ask you for your opinion :)
>Thanks again for the answer on the 5th rack :)
>cheers, stefan

Hi Stefan, you wrote:

[per column #311] So mine is catalin and has (besides the usual tiles):
>6 jokers, 20 flowers, 2 blanks (spare, nor dragons)
>So I figured, since it has 6 real imprinted jokers that this would date it somewhere between 1966-1968
>(even though it has way too many flowers for that period :))
The manufacturers seem to have gotten hyper-cautious on flower counts early on. "Always better to give'em more flowers," they appear to have said to themselves. "Nothing worse than letters from all those angry ladies looking for extra flowers." Just guessing.

http://www.mahjongmuseum.com/mj206.htm
>Now this set doesn't have anything to do with my set whatsoever, but it does say on top "Made in China Circa 1930"
>..but I can see two jokers in there!? that would date it 30 years younger right?
It is possible that Chinese sets were made with jokers long before the American manufacturers had to add jokers. The rule of thumb stated in column 311 applies strictly to sets made for American mah-jongg. One thing you'll usually see in Chinese sets with jokers - they usually have 8 flowers. Not talking about sets made for playing Vietnamese or Malaysian mah-jongg, mind you.

I'm just wondering how he 'knows' that that set is from the 30's?
You would have to ask him. (And lots of luck with that!) Personally, I might want to age that one a little younger.

you wrote: "As far as I know (I'd be delighted to learn differently, if a reader knows my present knowledge to be incorrect), no mah-jongg sets came with jokers until the NMJL first started requiring them in 1960-61."
I guess I'd better add a footnote to that. I have a couple of Chinese-made bone-and-bamboo sets with joker tiles, possibly from the 1930s. I guess them to be from the 1930s because of the carving style, the material, and for other reasons. That said, the 1930s is a dark period in mah-jongg history, since the craze had died down and few writings have been found from that decade.

May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
April 22, 2008

Why five racks?

>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>From: stefan (eriamel>
>Date: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:08:19 AM
>My mah-jongg question or comment is: 
>My apologies in advance if my question was/is already answered somewhere on the site and I overlooked it
>I've recently bought an older US mah-jongg set on eBay (catalin) that came in a long case together with 5 colored racks.
>I've unsuccessfully searched your site and others for the significance of that fifth rack.
>All I've found so far was under 7a "Types of sets" where you wrote "American sets come with four or five racks"
>I have see many pictures of US sets that come with 5 racks so there must have been sold a lot of those at one time.
>Were they sold with that fifth rack just as a spare or do they serve a specific purpose that I might be overlooking perhaps?
>regards,
>stefan

Hi Stefan,
Nice job searching the FAQs - thank you! The reason for the 5th rack is simple - so 5 people could play.
Now I suppose you're saying to yourself, "why would 5 racks be needed for 5 players?" And the answer to that is, "they aren't. Any more."
So I can hear your next question, so I'll answer that too. "Because Americans used to use the chips."

Folks used to keep score with the chips, which were stored on the end of the rack. So when you got up from the table temporarily to let another person sit in your seat, naturally you'd have needed to take your chips (thus your rack) with you.
Now that most people have dispensed with the chips (and just exchange coins), people ask why five racks.
And now you know.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
MJ溌Sloperama中com
トム·スローパー   /   湯姆 斯洛珀  /  탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
April 22, 2008

Chinese Bakelite: what kind of glue?

From: "Jay Davis" (jmd5)
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 11:48 AM
Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
> My mah-jongg question or comment is: Hi, I have a set of chinese 
> bakelite tiles with thin translucent green backs. Quite a few of the 
> backs have come off and I would like to know what kind of glue I 
> should use to reattach them (I was hoping to use something that would 
> not show through). Thanks! Kim