FAQ 17. Hong Kong Old Style Mah-Jongg
(Formerly: "3 FAN Mah-Jongg Explained")
|
FAQ 17. Hong Kong Old Style Mah-Jongg
(Formerly: "3 FAN Mah-Jongg Explained") |
Note: This FAQ was originally written to help Yahoo mah-jongg players who were finding themselves befuddled by other players' demands that "3-fan" rules must be obeyed. Yahoo's mah-jongg game no longer exists, but this FAQ is still useful as a guide to HKOS, which remains a very popular mah-jongg variant. Please just ignore all the Yahoo references and dead Yahoo links herein.
Originally written in 2003. Latest update: 2016
"Can somebody explain the
Hong Kong scoring system please? What the heck is a 'fan'?"
"Fan" is the Chinese term that in the West is usually termed "a Double." So if players agree that the minimum score is "3 Fan," that means the hand does not qualify to go mah-jongg unless the hand earns a minimum of 3 Doubles
- no chicken hands allowed! (A "chicken" or "KFC" hand is one that scores no doubles - i.e., 0 fan.)
If you're new to HKOS mah-jongg (and/or you're finding yourself puzzled by someone's demand that you play "3-fan"), you can most easily begin by playing just two types of hands: (1) Clean/Pure, and (2) All Pungs.
1a. A CLEAN hand is one that uses tiles from no more than one suit - and has some winds or dragons as well.
1b. A PURE hand is one that uses tiles from one suit only - with no winds or dragons.
2. ALL PUNGS means just that - the hand contains no chows.
But there is much more to the "3 fan" game than just clean/pure and all pungs. You can also earn a fan for having your own flower, or for having a pung of dragons, for example (these fan are supplemental to other scoring elements in the hand - if your hand is clean and has a pung of dragons, you get 3 fan for being clean, plus 1 fan for the pung of dragons - and I haven't even mentioned winning-tile situations yet!
When you are ready to go beyond the BEGINNERS' BASIC STRATEGY outlined above, you are ready to continue reading below. Have fun, and may the tiles be with you!
NOTE: The italicized hands above are a subject of controversy - their values and usage are not universally recognized by all Hong Kong players. You have to inquire about the table rules whenever joining a table with strangers.
Please see FAQ 8 for more in-depth strategy tips.
Another resource here on Sloperama is FAQ 20 (frequently misunderstood rules of Asian forms of mah-jongg).
From the Mah-Jongg Q&A Bulletin Board...
Hong Kong style clarifications
On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 07:21:29 AM EDT, Mona Stickley wrote:
Mahjong
Hi Tom!
I was just reading some of the questions [below] about the Hong Kong style of play and wanted to write in to explain it a bit. The Hong Kong style is poorly represented to beginners who learned how to play using the old Yahoo! based style of play. The Yahoo! game was for very seasoned players who wanted to limit a lot of lower level hands and players. In fact, I often saw beginner players kicked out of the game when they played incorrectly or if they played too slowly. The players that played the Yahoo! game wanted to concentrate on hands that required more skill to create and to play at a high rate of speed. If you are a seasoned player in the Hong Kong style of play, this is enjoyable and does not limit your skillset. However, if you are a beginner player to this style and are learning how to play using these old rules, it limits your skills and knowledge of this style of play. The Hong Kong style of play is not limited to starting at 3 Fan. There are many beginner and novice players who like to play a minimum of 3 Fan and they love it because they can make all kinds of wonderful, advanced and valuable hands. However, this is not an accurate representation of how they would fare in normal playing situations. It is a good place to learn the game because it takes less skill at times to win with 3 Fan than it does to win with 1 or 2 Fan!
If you take these same beginner players who are now used to playing 3 Fan, and put them at a table where you begin at a minimum of 1 Fan and they are playing with experienced players, they may not win a single hand. The advanced and valuable hands they are used to being able to win with will be impossible to get now when playing with people who can win with 1 Fan and can play at faster speeds. Why is this? Players with skill can see what you are doing by how and where you pull tiles out of your hand. They can see your patterns, they can understand what you have in your hand. They will be able to stop you from playing higher level hands. It is very easy to believe that this game is the most simple to learn yet it is one of the hardest styles to learn and advance in because of the intricacies that come from the strategies that can be played and nuances that happen at the table. Ironically, if you do not learn this lower scoring part of the game, you actually do not develop your skillset high enough to play with higher players regardless of if you play minimum 1 Fan, 3 Fan, or 5 Fan.
One of the most difficult pieces to learn in the Hong Kong style of play is the way to create multiple points that add value to your hand. If you only play a minimum of 3 Fan, you do not need to know the vast majority of these extra points. It is easy to win a hand by focusing on what will bring 3 Fan. You can spend all of your time pursuing an all pong hand and not have to learn any other type of hand. It is not easy to win a hand by focusing on what will bring 1 Fan, the possibilities are much higher, you need to use more memory and knowledge to win with 1 Fan. For players that love to learn, broaden their skillset, they would really benefit from learning the entire range of hands to play in the Hong Kong style, the scoring methods, and the nuances and differences between playing computer based games and playing in person.
The questions that I see in your blog are coming from this intersection of 2 components - what I like to refer to as set hands versus stacking components. For instance, the question regarding Pin Woo where they are playing 3 Fan minimum and then allowing pin-woo with certain stipulations. This is not really an accurate way to play pin-woo to meet a 3 Fan minimum requirement. Pin-woo is 1 Fan, not 2 Fan. It needs an additional 2 value areas - what I like to call stacking components) in your hand if you are playing a minimum of 3 Fan.
First, let's correct what is understood about pin-woo. Pin-woo is an all chow hand. It is worth 1 Fan. There are no other stipulations such as it has to be a no point hand in other areas or that it has to be mixed suit. Your pin-woo can absolutely have points in it, you just count the points in addition to. If the pin-woo is all in one suit that is acceptable, you get the 1 Fan for the pin-woo, you get the Fan for the pure hand, etc. If you are playing 3 Fan minimum, and you want to win with pin-woo you are trying to win with a 1 Fan hand. You need to add at least 2 Fan to your hand to win. So if they are allowing pin-woo if a player has their flower or no flowers or self-draws is not correct as that only adds 1 Fan. It would be suitable if they had their flower and a self-draw. Here are all the extra components you can add to your hand to get the minimum of 3 Fan, remember you need to get 2 of these elements, not just 1:
1) either have your flower or no flower,
2) you self-draw,
3) you win off someone else's Kong / Gong (Robbing the Kong),
4) you win off the very last tile,
5) you obtain a flower and when you take your replacement tile you obtain your winning tile from the dead wall,
or
6) your hand is entirely concealed until the time you win.
Not all of the above are accepted by everyone or by all mahjong computer games. The Yahoo! 3 Fan game did not accept the last point. They did not consider concealed hands as a Fan. Many mahjong computer games do not. However, it is generally always accepted when playing in person and is a huge part of the game.
The remainder of the conversation regarding pin-woo was in relation to the player having a pure hand. The pin-woo would most definitely score points on top of the purity or pure hand. All defined hands, I like to refer to them as set hands, such as a pong hand, a pin-woo, a pure hand, etc can have value added by adding what I call stacking components. Some stacking components are what is in my list above of the 6 ways you can add to a pin-woo to increase the value. So if you take a set hand which is a pure hand you would get the Fan for the pure hand which is 6 points in many places, in some places they will award higher value for a pure hand. You then are adding another set hand which is pin-woo as a stacking component to your pure hand. This adds the value of the pin-woo which is 1 Fan. You now have 7 Fan. If you also had your flower that would be an additional Fan. If you self-draw for the win, that is an additional Fan plus everyone pays you double.
As well, I think Amy Lo's book is being interpreted incorrectly in response to the question. Pin-woo by definition, does not always contain mixed suits. Pin-woo means all chow or all sheung. It doesn't matter if it is 3 suits, 2 suits, or 1 suit. Interestingly, in some variations of the game, you would actually get an additional Fan if your hand held only 2 suits. I think Amy Lo was trying to show pin-woo as all mixed suits because it is easier to explain it that way instead of the full range of possibilities. In the earlier part of her book, she shows pin-woo as being mixed suit only. She then shows a pin-woo mixed with a pure hand later in her book, just like the question that came up. This is where she correctly shows the addition of the 2 components: the pure hand for 6 Fan and 1 Fan for pin-woo. So I believe she wasn't trying to state pin-woo is only mixed suits, I think it was just an example of the range you can do with a pin-woo.
For the comment that the all chow hand doesn't define pin-woo sufficiently because the pair must be valueless, the pair does not ever impact the value of the pin-woo. In old rules, you can play a 2-5-8 rule which is an old style of play where if you have an eye (a pair) that is of any suit and if that pair is a 2, 5, or an 8 then your eye is worth an extra Fan. If you play the 2-5-8 rule, it still does not affect your pin-woo. You would get the 1 Fan for your pin-woo, or all chow hand, and then you would get the 1 Fan for your special eye.
I hope that clears some of the confusion. The Hong Kong version can be very confusing because many families each have their own way of playing, organizations, schools, and communities all have their own rules and may score differently. I really love that you have so many mahjong enthusiasts on your site. Thanks for being so devoted to the game and to the community!
For any of your audience that wants to learn more aspects about the Hong Kong style of mahjong, I have an online course that would give them a bigger range of skills in the Hong Kong style. I prepared a coupon so they can obtain a 30% discount off my course - the coupon specifically created for them is SLOPER. Just type that into the apply coupon area for the 30% discount. They are already coming in with knowledge about the game so they may be able to skip through some aspects of the course quickly. For those interested, the course I recommend is our Full Course - the Fast Track version. It is 12 modules and 110 lessons in total. I teach scoring as 2 different components for the Hong Kong style, the set hands and then the stacking components, which is the main conversation we got into above. I also get into how to build speed so you can play the game quickly as this becomes a requirement when playing with many players who like to play the Hong Kong style of play. Their discount would apply to any of our courses but I think the Full Course would be the most suitable for your audience.
Wow, that's a lot of info, Mona! Thank you for all those clarifications. I'm appending this to the Comments section of FAQ 17.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Author of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs
Donations appreciated
September 7, 2022
Rochester, New York, USA
Pin woo brouhaha
"Pin woo (one fan): All chows (no pungs) and a valueless pair (no dragon pair; no seat wind or round wind pair). Some tables may allow pin woo, by self-pick, with no flowers, to meet the 3fan minimum - ask before trying. Some tables require this hand to be concealed. Some players call this hand "all chows" but that insufficiently defines the hand (especially in that the pair must be valueless)." Sounds to me like your players have more to add to that definition. Also, as I wrote in FAQ 9:
"Philosophy #1: Everybody who adheres to a particular form of mah-jongg uses different table rules, so be flexible. The day after mah-jongg was created, it was played at a second table, with a second set of rules. You can use any table rule you like, so long as it's agreeable to all your players, and you are all prepared to deal with possible conflicts, and you are all prepared to suspend your table rules at a different table or when playing in a tournament." So, what would I have said at your table? I would have said, "we should have had this conversation before. Let's work out a definition of pin woo that we will use at this table going forward. If we come to an impasse, the host gets to decide. Agreed?"
Also, in my opinion, one ought to award pin woo based on the original intended definition of the hand: "valueless hand" (because it's worthless chows and a worthless pair). The original idea is that one can win with a valueless hand because it's got logical beauty and isn't that easy to make - it's sort of like it has value because it's so ridiculously valueless (it's a pity fan) but it's also not the easiest kind of hand to make.
So if the hand is also Pure (one suit only), it's questionable whether an extra fan for being all chows with a valueless pair should be awarded, since a Pure hand is not valueless.
>From: Cheryl L
>Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 10:12 AM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>I was not able to find an answer to my question on your site. Our regular MJ group's harmony was upset yesterday by a pin-woo dispute. We play with a 3 fan minimum, and we allow pin-woo if a player has the right flower or no flowers or self-draws the winning tile.
>Player A made a pure hand in the pin-woo configuration (4 sheungs and a pair). Player B said it should be scored as a pure hand (6 fan). Player C said it should be scored as a pure hand (6 fan) plus a pin-woo configuration (2 fan) for a total of 8 fan. Then, Player B said that a pure hand--regardless of configuration--should never be referred to as pin-woo because pin-woo, by definition, always contains mixed suits.
>Unfortunately, Players B and C are equally strong-willed, so no resolution was achieved. If you were at the table, what would you have said?
>Thank you for your comments!
>--Cheryl
Hi, Cheryl.
As I wrote in Frequently Asked Question 17:
Tom Sloper
Creator of these Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
12/12/12
Pin woo broohaha, part too
Follow-up to my previous response. I just checked Amy Lo's book (highly recommended for players of Hong Kong / Cantonese style - see FAQ 3) and she specifically states that ping woo must have tiles of more than one suit. (She doesn't say anything about any requirements for the pair, though.) So I'm going to add this requirement to FAQ 17.
Tom Sloper
Creator of these Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
12/12/12
Hong Kong rules
For information about Amy Lo's book, see
Frequently Asked Question 3.
And for information about Hong Kong rules, see
Frequently Asked Question 17.
Scroll up and look left for the FAQs, which are marked by a blue and yellow flashing arrow (emblazoned "READ 1ST," like this
> From: PhamKimThuy P
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 11:12 PM
> Subject: Hong Kong Mahjong's question
> Dear Sir,
> I have 2 questions on Hong Kong mahjong :
> 1./ If I had a pair of South :
> a./ The player on my left, discard the South, I did not pung.
> b./ I drew a tile from the wall, and discarded a tile.
> c./ The player on my right, discard the South, can I pung on that last South ?
> If I could not, is that a table rule ?
> 2./ If a hand had all chows, no flower, self drawn.
> Is it 3 fan , will get 16 + 16 + 16 = 48 chips ?
> Thanks in advance for your help.
> pkthuy
Hi, PKThuy.
Yes, you can, because between the two Souths, you had picked and discarded. Amy Lo, page 28: if the second South had gone out in the same go-around (without you having played a turn in between), then you would not be permitted to claim the second one after passing up the first. Interestingly, someone else asked this just last week (Lynne C, August 15) - but she was asking about American mah-jongg, not HKOS.
Yes, it's 3 fan, but only if your group has already agreed (i) to use flowers (see Amy Lo, page 49.), and (ii) that having no flowers is worth 1 fan, and also if (iii) your all-chows hand has a valueless pair (no dragon pair; no seat wind or round wind pair - see FAQ 17).
Yes, if in your group's game, non-winners pay 1 chip per point to the winner. See Amy Lo, page 44.
).
Please always check the FAQs first, before asking me a question. Thanks!
Tom Sloper
Creator of
the weekly Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
August 21, 2013
Name:
Tom Sloper
Email:
tomster[AT]sloperama[DOT]com
Date:
29 May 2003
No.
[But] You can get 3 fan for a Clean hand (all the number tiles are of the same suit, and there are some winds and/or dragons in the hand; also called "semipure"). So if you have an all-chow hand with a pair of dragons or winds, that would be the necessary 3 fan. (I guess. Unless [someone at the table insists] that a Clean hand is not allowed to have more than 1 chow.)
These rules are given widely at numerous Yahoo player websites. I guess I should make my own page for it. It'll be FAQ 17.
Tom
Date:
01 Jun 2003
A kong counts as a pung (it's even better than a pung, so why shouldn't it count?). So this is an all-pung hand. Instant 3 fan.
Please take another look at what I said before. I said [I regard such a hand as a valid Clean hand, but some hardcore players may insist that] a Clean hand must have no more than one chow - [you may have to check with the table to see] if a Clean hand can be composed of all chows. A lot of Yahoo players erroneously refer to the Pin Woo hand as "All Chows," but that insufficiently describes the Pin Woo hand. Pin Woo is intended to be a consolation prize for a worthless hand, thus the hand must actually be worthless - in the Classical game, a pair of dragons was worth a point or two, and in HKOS although they don't count points (they only count fan), this characteristic of Pin Woo has been carried over (you don't need to know that last part, so don't read it). Your question (the way you asked it) was "are there any 3 fans that include all series," meaning chows, and the answer to that is no. IF, however (I said IF) the table permits a Clean hand to have four chows, then you would have to have a dragon or wind pair. You can also ask this question on the Yahoo mah-jongg BB. See what they say.
Tom
Date:
16 Jun 2003
This term "clean" is defined in FAQ 17, [above] . The suit tiles are from one suit only (the hand consists of some honor tiles, and suit tiles from just ONE suit). Some people call it "semipure" rather than "clean." I've also heard it called "half suit." [ See FAQ 6 for more about how mah-jongg players use different terms. It's a crazy game!]
By comparison, "pure" means that all the tiles in the hand are of one suit only (there are no honor tiles in the hand at all). "Honor" tiles are the wind and dragon tiles. Have you tried clicking the links in FAQ 17 to see other people's descriptions of the Yahoo 3-fan game?
[It would by me, but that may not be] a universal answer, as I think I explained before. It depends on the people you are playing with. Some people may have a table rule that a clean/semipure hand cannot have more than one chow, or must have at least one pung. And SOME people award only ONE fan (not 3) for a clean/semipure hand. (If you don't know what I mean by "table rule" see FAQ 14.)
I gather that you play on Yahoo. Those people are notorious about not wanting to explain anything, and they are also notorious for booting people for not understanding their 3-fan rules. So you've probably been booted already. It isn't going to kill you to ask them "can I have four chows in a semipure hand?" If they don't answer you, then just try to make that hand. Say "it's clean." Or say "it's semipure." If they boot you, then they disagreed (and they don't feel like explaining - and I say you're lucky not to be spending any more time with rude people like that). Have you checked the other Yahoo 3-Fan sites [above] ? One of the writers, "mjaddict," says: "Please do not play in a 3 fan table if you are still not sure what is 3 fan." I think that's good advice. There are other Yahoo "rooms" where you can play with folks who are at your level.
Tom
Date:
18 Jun 2003
Okay. So remind me why you play with a 3-fan minimum again? In my opinion, and in the opinion of several Hong Kong players who discuss the game at the mah-jongg newsgroup, this 3-fan minimum actually reduces the fun of the game, and increases the number of draw games. I also believe that it decreases the harmony (and I believe harmony is essential to an enjoyable game). See FAQ 9 for more about harmony.
If the people you are playing with don't really know what the 3-fan rules are, why are you playing with a 3-fan minimum? (I suspect it's "because everybody else is doing it.")
Why try to get people to do something they are reluctant to do? That goes against the harmony principle.
Let's make sure we are clear on something here. There is a hand that the Yahoo players erroneously call "all chows" and there is a hand called "clean." Those hands are two different hands. It is possible for a clean hand to have all chows (which would be "an all-chow clean hand").
The reason we were discussing all-chow clean hands is because you asked me if a clean hand could have four chows. I said that in order to have a CLEAN hand with all chows, the pair would have to be winds or dragons. [Edit, 2019: If the pair was the same suit as the chows, that's not Clean - that's Pure.]
Yahoo players have another hand erroneously called "all chows" - its proper name is "Pin Woo." THAT hand must have a pair that is NOT dragons, and is not the seat wind or round wind. The hand that Yahoo players call "all chows" can be mixed suits (whereas the clean hand can use suit tiles from one suit only). As described in FAQ 17 [above] .
So if you make a hand that has four chows of the same suit, plus a pair of dragons, what you have is a CLEAN hand (worth, in my opinion, 3 fan). You do not also score 1 fan for "All Chows" - because your pair goes against the "Pin Woo" rule (that the pair must be valueless). It's 3 fan, not 4 fan, if you make a clean hand with four chows.
No, I didn't say. [^_^] Yes, you can win waiting for the matching tile to complete the pair (this is OK in ALL forms of mah-jongg). There's no special rule about this in the 3-fan rules used by Yahoo players. [ See FAQ 10 for the basics of Asian forms of mah-jongg; See FAQ 4b for websites where you can see rules for all forms of mah-jongg; see FAQ 3 for books about mah-jongg.]
What often happens in mah-jongg (whether played on Yahoo or at Aunt Ruth's kitchen table) is that several of the players learned the rules by osmosis, and there may be conflicting interpretations of how a particular event should be handled. Usually, nobody has a copy of actual printed rules to refer to, and when a conflict arises, the players just have to figure out how to handle it harmoniously so they can get back to playing some more. I recommend that you read FAQ 9 (see [nav frame at] left).
It sometimes happens that one player has very strong opinions - deeply held beliefs about the rightness of a particular ruling. To strong-willed players, being "right" is often more important than harmony. You may encounter a strong-willed player who has encountered a rule that a clean hand can not have more than one chow in it. If this happens to you when you have succeeded in making a clean hand with four chows, he isn't going to be convinced or swayed by anything you say (and he probably never heard of me, so don't try using my name to back you up). My recommendation, when you encounter a strong-willed player with deeply held beliefs that you have erred, is accept his pronouncement gracefully so the game can continue.
Tom
Q:
>I'm trying to compile a list of HKOS rules,
>including the Chinese/Cantonese names of the hands, etc. Could you please tell me what the hands "Jade Dragon", "Ruby Dragon", and "Pearl Dragon" would be in Chinese (if possible, could you include the characters?)? I can't seem to find any site that lists them.
A: The reason for that is that the hands you mentioned are peculiar to the Western variant - they are not used in HKOS.
>Also, I was told that "Jade Dragon" and "All Green" are the same, but from what I have read, "All Green" allows for any type of Stick/Bamboo set (i.e. Chow, Pong and Kong), whereas "Jade Dragon" only allows Pongs/Kongs. Is there usually a difference?
The hand "All Green" as defined by the Japanese game and the Chinese Official game can be made any of three ways: with a pung of green dragons, with a pair of green dragons, or without any green dragons. In order to be all green, only the "green bams" can be used. Those are the 2, 3, 4, 6, and 8 (you'll notice that in most sets, there is some red in the 1, 5, 7, and 9 of bams).
"Jade Dragon" might or might not require a pair of green dragons depending on the authority you use (or the table rules). When you have a pung of green dragons, Western mah-jongg awards more for that, calling it "Imperial Jade."
Jade Dragon and Imperial Jade are both subsets of All Green, which is inclusive of both. I never heard of a rule set that required one of those hands to be all pungs.
Date:
04 Jul 2003
Follow-up to my previous post [above]:
I had said that the "jewel hands" are "not" used in HKOS. But [then] I remembered that I'd seen one of the Yahoo HKOS sites mention jewel hands (and thus I'd even included them in FAQ 17).
I checked just now, and I see that the jewel hands are described by Coppy, at [dead link deleted]. They may also be mentioned by one or two other Yahoo site authors too. And Hong Kong mah-jongg, the beautiful computer game by Nine Dragons, also permits the use of jewel hands as an option.
So there's a discrepancy between what I wrote [above] and what I wrote in FAQ 17 [um, also above]. Let me clarify.
1. Jewel hands are not normally a part of HKOS. There may be some Hong Kong players who use jewel hands - but you will not find jewel hands mentioned in any of the HKOS books (Perlmen & Chan, Amy Lo, Constantino).
2. The Yahoo online game is actually programmed to use Chinese Classical rules. But when folks play the Yahoo online game, they usually ignore the programmed rules, and play by HKOS rules instead.
3. It may well be that some Yahoo players recognize and allow jewel hands. I mean, they are ignoring the programmed rules anyway - and they just play according to rules agreed by the majority of players (or demanded by the loudest, most strong-willed player). Anyway, see FAQ 14 and read about "table rules."
I'm going to add this post to FAQ 17 to keep the record straight. I may alter the FAQ to clarify this matter further as well.
Tom
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