Sets of tiles concealed within your hand are your "happy secret." Mahjong isn't Rummy - the goal isn't to get rid of the tiles in your hand, it's to build a complete hand (hopefully without letting on to other players how complete your hand is). While you have to expose a completed set when taking a discard, you do not have to expose a complete set that's concealed in the hand. If you have a complete chow or pung in your hand, you don't WANT to expose it for all to see. So when you have a complete chow or pung in your hand, keep it hidden in your hand as your happy secret.
Calling a discard for exposure. You can take a discard to make a chow only when it is thrown by the player at your left. That means it's your turn, and you can start your turn by taking the discard.
BUT... To make a pung or kong, or to declare mah-jongg, you can take anyone's discard (even when it isn't your turn).
For more on chows, see the Comments section, below.
Winning on a discard. When you are ready for mah-jongg, you can win by discard no matter what the tile is used for (chow, pair, pung, single). That portion of the set completed by that tile might have to be scored lower, but the win is valid (even if the hand is supposed to be concealed, unless the hand specifically must be won by self-pick).
Punging restarts the order of play. When someone other than next-in-line after the discarder claims a discard to make a pung, the regular order of play is interrupted.
Let's say Player A discards. It's Player B's turn next... unless Player C or Player D calls "pung." After the punger has discarded, play order resumes from the punger (not from the discarder of the punged tile).
A kong is a special "exalted" pung. But it's still a pung for tile count reasons.
You can think of the kong as a pung wearing a fourth tile on its head like a crown. Although you see four tiles, it's still considered a pung. Sort of.
The typical hand is "four groups and a pair" - fourteen tiles in all. A "group" is usually "three tiles." So when a group is a kong (four tiles), then it messes up the tile count. ." Four groups and a pair is fifteen tiles if one group is four tiles instead of three. If your hand has four groups, and one of the groups is four tiles, say because you just picked a fourth from the wall and exposed a kong, you don't have a tile to discard because now you have "four groups and a single." With me so far? So to preserve the hand's integrity, a replacement tile must be taken from the back end of the wall, just as is done with flowers (unless your rulebook defines a "kong box" separate from the "flower wall").
- When you have four identical tiles concealed within the hand, you have the option of melding them, declaring the four to be a kong that counts as concealed, so you can take a replacement tile. Different rulesets have different norms for how a concealed kong is to be displayed (all face-down, or the two end tiles face-down, for instance).
For more on kongs, see the Comments section, below.
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Speaking of flowers... Flowers don't count as part of the hand's tile count. When counting your tiles (either to see if you need to pick or to discard, or to check if your hand is dead or not), count only your exposed groupings and your concealed tiles - don't count the flowers. And if you have a kong (a pung with a bonus fourth tile), count that as three tiles (not four).
Can I make a 3456 chow, four numbers instead of the usual three?
No, you cannot. A chow is "three consecutive numbers in a row," end of story. A four-number sequence pattern is very useful strategically (in building the hand), but it's not an exposable set, and there's no place for those four tiles in a complete four-sets-and-a-pair hand.
Can I chow ESW or ESWN or WGR?
No, you cannot make a chow from three different dragons or three different winds or three consecutively numbered flowers. There is no such thing. A chow is made from numbered suit tiles only. Three of them.
Conflicting claims for exposure.
When one player claims a discard for chow, and one claims it for a pung, then the pung call overrides the chow call.
Conflicting claims, one for exposure and one for the win.
When one player claims a discard for exposure, and one claims it for mah-jongg, the player who needs it for mah-jongg takes priority.
Conflicting claims for mah-jongg.
When two players claim a tile for mah-jongg, as long as both claims were spoken within a reasonably short period of time, the player whose turn would be next in order of play (counterclockwise from discarder) is the one who gets the tile.
It's not a race; the player who verbalized the claim first does not necessarily get the tile. There are exceptions to every rule: Some forms of mah-jongg (such as Japanese) allow both players to win. And some forms (such as HKOS) may allow a claim for a high-scoring hand or special hand to take precedence over another winner's claim.
Seat winds in Chinese mah-jongg are not like a map.
Going counterclockwise around the table, players' winds are East, South, West, North.
In Chinese mah-jongg, seat winds do not correspond to the expected compass directions on a map (East, North, West, South) as if looking down on the table from the heavens. They were never intended to!
Exposed vs. Concealed.
No player may ever take a discard and put it into the concealed hand. The price for taking a discard is that you must complete a set with it, and you must expose that completed set (without ever putting that taken discard into the concealed portion of your hand).
Only the most recent discard is available for taking (and only while the Window Of Opportunity is still open). Once another player has picked a tile from the wall and used it, that "old" discard is considered "covered" by the new discard. In card games, when one discards a card, one places it on a pile, right? Well, we can't do that with mah-jongg tiles because the tiles are so thick -- the increasingly tall stack of tiles would quickly become unstable and fall over. In forms of mah-jongg in which discards are simply placed randomly on the discard floor, a player has to simply keep an eye on the table and know which discard is the most recent one.
The Window Of Opportunity to claim a discard.
A wall tile was seen; now what? Or sometiles were knocked off the wall; now what?
When a wall tile is accidentally exposed, it's just too darn bad, but it goes right back where it was. Once the wall is built, whenever something happens to the wall, best efforts must be made to preserve the original order of tiles in the wall, regardless of how much information was revealed to any players.
Why are there numbers on the flowers?
Is it "die" or "dice"? "Dice" is the plural of "die." In mah-jongg we don't roll just one die, we roll two dice - or more than two, depending on the variant you're playing.
What is the rule when somebody wants to claim a discarded tile for exposure after the next person has already picked a tile from the wall?
Your question is about what I call the "window of opportunity" rule. The "window of opportunity" is that brief moment in time during which a player may claim a discard. When does the window of opportunity open, and when does it close? NOTE: Most rulebooks of Asian forms of mah-jongg do not include this level of detail. Thus the principle described below, adapted somewhat from American mah-jongg, is not enforceable if the players have a different way of doing things. American mah-jongg and Chinese Majiang Competition Rules have detailed written rules, but many forms do not. That said, the following is still good food for thought, for players of all variants. - Tom
Opening the Window of Opportunity
Next Player Picks From the Wall
Closing the Window of Opportunity
One Window Closes, Another Window Opens
I recommend that all tables have a copy of a good rulebook. See FAQ 3 for a list of books on numerous types of mah-jongg, and see FAQ 2b if you need to identify which type you play.
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Name: Tom Sloper
Hello Vivian M (vm28), you wrote:
>Our group has not been able to establish the sequence of picking tiles from the wall, and also selecting tiles in turn. We have a problem with direction.
Yes, many have asked this before. Look at this picture.
There are two directions happening simultaneously - counterclockwise (the players taking tiles in turn) and clockwise (the tiles disappearing from the wall). During the course of play, players always take turns counterclockwise (even during the deal) - and tiles are always removed clockwise from the wall (even during the deal).
Name = Minette
True, it does seem that that would be smart. However... would it be nice?
If you are playing against a bunch who is much faster and sharper than you (you are totally outgunned by a bunch of mah-jongg "sharks"), then by all means "pickandrack" is a reasonable defensive strategy. HOWEVER... if any of your opponents are slow thinkers, or new players still struggling with the concept of the game, then "pickandrack" would be a highly aggressive way to act. Who's the mah-jongg shark now? (^_^)
Some authors who write about the Chinese Classical game actually go one step further and set a rule that the player to the right of the latest discarder should pause for a beat before reaching to take the next tile from the wall. And I even heard some mention of this idea (that players should pause for a beat before picking) at a recent American tournament here in Los Angeles. It's a kinder and gentler way to play! ...
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Can I chow to win? Or do I have to self-pick?
Hi Cordelia,
>From: Charles/Cordelia Christopher
Cordelia, you wrote:
Thanks-I thought that was true.
I found the rules on-line although I have an old Babcock book
a rule set-a one pager for simplicity ... by Paul E. Jaeger, Nov. 23, 2004.
And I'm so glad you're spreading the joy of mah-jongg! And that's really cool that ex-NMJL players are enjoying the classic! Keep it up, girl! (^_^)
All the books say you can chow, but...
Hi, Heather! You wrote:
but is this just for ordinary mahjong and not for games like “windy chow”?
All the books say you can
How often can I chow?
You were told right, Frances! But you have misconstrued the rule. In the mah-jongg rules you play (British/Australian/Western rules), there are Ordinary Hands and there are special hands.
An ordinary hand may contain only one chow. There are also special hands which explicitly require chows.
Do I have to expose a pung before I can chow?
Hi, Valerie!
You asked:
VC: Can I pick up a chow as my first display of tiles? Or do I have to have a pung before a chow?
VC: I believe in Chinese game, one must have a pung before a chow?
I'm going to append this conversation to the Comments section of FAQ 20, which discusses frequently misunderstood rules of mah-jongg.
Winning by discard for a chow
Hi, Todd.
Claiming a discard for a pair
Hi, Terence.
Can one not only have one's cake, but eat it too? (Japanese riichi/dora majan)
中&西: Hi Richard,
This shows "2 sets and 4 pairs." There's no such hand structure! You can only make "4 sets and 1 pair" or "7 pairs" or "12 singles and 1 pair" (kokushimusou).
How is it possible to make four kongs? That would be more than 14 tiles! (Was:
Fourfold Plenty has too many tiles in it!)
Hi, George!
Can I pung and meld a kong on the same turn?
Hi, Stan! Sounds like you play an Asian or British/Australian variant, in which kongs are regarded as "glorified pungs" thus net the player an extra tile.
Can I pung and meld a kong on the same turn, part 2
I see, Stan. You're not asking about melding a concealed kong but rather promoting a pung to a kong. Let's walk it through:
British rules questions
Hi, Stanley! You wrote:
Can a winning hand consist of 1,2,3 or 4 kongs, with the rest pungs or chows (and of course a pair)
Clearly, 4 kongs and a pair consists of 18 tiles,
But aren’t hands restricted to 13 titles?
Or is it that a (4 tile) kong is only counted as 3 tiles.
The other alternative it would seem is that you can win with either 3 Kongs or 4 pungs/chows.
How to use kongs down under
G'day, Susan!
Since you're writing from Australia and you're asking how to account for a kong because it screws up the tile count, I assume you are learning Australian/British mah-jongg. I wish you had mentioned which book you use (if it's a Thompson & Maloney book, you need to tell me its title).
where a hand includes a kong. Are you able to call mahjong with just 13 tiles then?
Or do you have to have 2 pairs as well as the kong - i.e. 14 tiles?
I have read your FAQ on the topic but, sadly, didn’t understand it.
A kong is a special pung. The typical hand is "four groups and a pair" - fourteen tiles (a "group" is usually "three tiles"). So when a group is a kong (four tiles), then it messes up the tile count. If your hand has four groups, and one of the groups is four tiles, say because you just picked a fourth from the wall, you don't have a tile to discard because now you have "four groups and a single." With me so far? So to preserve the hand's integrity, a replacement tile must be taken. Usually it is taken from the back end of the wall (just as is done with flowers) - unless your rulebook defines a "kong box" separate from the "flower wall."
Also in FAQ 20, down below the FAQ, there are several reader Q&As from this bulletin board, including some asking about kongs. Dhirajlal (George) asked in October 2018 about how it's possible to have four kongs in a hand. I told him:
If these explanations don't satisfy, I can try again if you tell me which words confuse. Surely your book explains kongs? What book are you using to learn? Or are you learning from a website? I hope you're not relying solely on my website, because I do not have complete rules for Australian/British mah-jongg here. There are several books on your variant listed in FAQ 3. And I have listed some websites describing Australian/British rules in FAQ 4b.
You are welcome to ask me more questions, but please please tell me what mah-jongg guide you are using to learn the rules.
If you appreciate the free information on this site, your donation would be gratefully accepted, and would help keep this site running as a free service. Thank you!
Kong promotion
Hi, Lisa!
How does the "concealed kong" work?
Hi J. Yuen,
The players can all see that you have a melded kong, but they can't see what it is. It is "concealed." Once you've made the meld, you are permitted to take a replacement tile from the back end of the wall. Now you have 15 tiles in the hand, and that's OK because you've got a kong.
When do I have to meld my concealed kong?
G'day, Glennis!
When do I have to [show] my concealed kong?
Hi, Glennis.
Penalty for erroneous mah-jongg
Hi, Jon.
Chinese Maj questions
Niihau, Zoe! I was wondering which Chinese variant you were asking about, but then you mentioned an 8-point minimum, so I surmise you are talking about MCR. You asked:
When a player has the wrong number of tiles... Do they somehow correct the number of tiles in their hand or do they keep playing with the incorrect number of tiles in their hand?
When a player has a false “hu” does the player keep the 14th
Do they need to discard that [exact] 14th tile?
And after that what happens?
May the tiles be with you.
Penalty for wrong tile count or other unfixable error in HKOS
Hi, L. Yes, you understand the rule correctly. As I answered in FAQ 20 (in answer to questions from J. Yuen W on December 17, 2014 and from Zoe G on March 19, 2018 - so you would find this by scrolling down to the comments section).
Can I chow a knitted set?
Hi, Lynn!
It's a straight, 123 456 789 - but in knitted chows, not in single-suit chows. It's easy to mentally separate the dots, for instance, and see that they are the knitted sets you were thinking of:
They're the same thing, since the first number in each knitted chow is the same suit, and so on. If you have three knitted sets the way Fan #35 is described, then you automatically have a knitted straight. I just showed it as a knitted straight (not as three knitted sets).
Countin' flowers on the wall
Hi, Bob! Flower replacements are drawn immediately. I was in a tournament in China. I exposed my flower and announced, "hua" (pronounced "hwa," not "hoo-ah") and took a tile from the back end of the wall. It was a flower so I put it down and said, "hua" and took another from the back end. It was also a flower. "Hua." A little chuckle went up around the table, because that happens sometimes, due to the number of flower tiles and the vagaries of chance. The game has to wait until each player, in turn, is done replacing flowers. That don't bother me at all.
Simplified rules for "basic Chinese" mah-jongg - FAQ 10
Ask your question about mah-jongg on the Q&A Bulletin Board
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© 2004-2024 Tom Sloper. All rights reserved. May not be re-published without written permission of the author.
This is a kong - four of a kind. All four of a single tile = "kong." It counts as a special sort of pung.
- When you have three identical tiles concealed within the hand, and an opponent discards the fourth, you may claim it (the same as you would pung a discard) and expose the completed kong.
- When you have an exposed pung and you pick the fourth tile from the wall, you have the option of promoting your exposed pung to an exposed kong. (You may not take the discard to add to your exposed pung.)
In all cases of kong declaration, a replacement must be taken from the back end of the wall.
An easy-to-read intro for beginners and an excellent reference
for expert players, The Red Dragon & The West Wind is a complete
guide to official Chinese and American mah-jongg. Look for it on Amazon or Barnes & Noble. Available in print or electronic editions. You'll also want to download the errata for latest updated info.
You cannot do this in a finished mahjong hand. This is not a chow, and it is not a kong.
Three in a row = "chow." Four of a kind = "kong." There is no such thing as a run of four in any form of mah-jongg.
Rummy, yes. Mah-Jongg, no. But this combination is powerful in the early phase of a hand, the building phase.
Q: I know that some hands are permitted to be exposed and some must be concealed, but what do the terms "exposed" and "concealed" mean exactly?
A: Concealed means "all concealed, win by discard permitted." And Exposed means "there is at least one exposure (meld)."
So, if a player is displaying one or more melded exposures, which kind of hand is the player holding...? Exposed. If a player says mah-jongg without having previously melded any exposures, which kind of hand did the player have...? Concealed.
Q: If the next player has already picked a tile from the wall and someone else wants to claim the most recent discard, does the player have to put the tile back on the wall?
A: In Asian variants, it depends on how much time has passed.
Let's say Player A discards. Player B starts their turn, but Player C says "pung." If Player B has picked from the wall (even if it has been seen or put into the hand) but Player C's claim is spoken within 3 seconds from the time the tile was discarded, then Player B needs to put it back and allow Player C's call to be fulfilled.
But if more than 3 seconds have passed since the tile was discarded, then the call is deemed to be too late.
Note: The 3-second rule is the official rule in Majiang Competition Rules. 3 seconds is a reasonable window in other Asian forms* of mah-jongg as well. For more on the Window Of Opportunity, scroll down.
* The 3-second rule does not apply to American/NMJL rules.
The numbers correspond to seat positions of the players. East is seat 1; South is 2; West is 3; North is 4. If you use flowers (I didn't want to go into flowers because they add a complexity to the rules), then your score is doubled if you have a flower with your seat number on it. Your seat number changes as the deal moves around the table, so you have to keep track of your position relative to the current East. Not all Asian variants use the flower tiles. There are no flowers in Japanese riichi/dora majan. Hong Kong players usually leave the flowers out of play.
The window opens the instant a discarded tile is either named (if your group announces tiles when discarding) or it touches the table top, whichever happens first. The tile is now "down," and is available for claiming by another player. (And the discarder can no longer change his mind and take it back.)
The next player (the player to the right of the discarder) now reaches (ideally allowing other players a reasonable moment in which to claim the live discard), takes the next tile from the end of the wall, and looks at it. He cannot change his mind and put the tile back, but the window of opportunity is still open on the most recent discard. His taking and looking at the picked tile did NOT close the window of opportunity on the live discard - anybody can still call it!
Any other player can claim the current discard right up until one of the following events occurs:
The current player puts the picked tile among the other concealed tiles in his hand;
Three seconds have passed since the tile was discarded;
The current player discards his picked tile;
The current player declares mah-jongg with his newly picked tile.
Once any of the above has occurred, the window of opportunity CLOSES on the discarded tile we've been discussing. It's now too late for another player to claim that tile for exposure or for mah-jongg.
When a player picks and discards, that old discarded tile is now "dead," and is considered "covered" by the new discarded tile.
Comments
Date: 20 Aug 2003
Email = brogal
Comments = >Continuing discussion about the "window of opportunity" re: discards
>It seems that it would be smart for a player picking from the wall to immediately rack the tile (in her hand)- & "close the window of opportunity" on the previously discarded tile, - & then discard that picked tile or another. True?
May the tiles be with you! - Tom
Tom Sloper
Los Angeles, CA
Date = March 13, 2004
Tom Sloper / トム·スローパー
/
湯姆·斯洛珀 /
탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
August 30, 2007
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," available at bookstores and Amazon.com
An easy-to-read intro for beginners and an excellent reference
for expert players, The Red Dragon & The West Wind is a complete
guide to official Chinese and American mah-jongg. Look for it on Amazon or Barnes & Noble. Available in print or electronic editions. You'll also want to download the errata for latest updated info.
>From: Charles/Cordelia Christopher
>Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 4:11 PM
>Subject: When you mah jongg in Classical Chinese Rules, is it permissable...
>Hi Tom
>When you Mah Jongg using Classical Chinese rule set:
>If you have 4 sets of 3 and 1 green dragon, and a player discards a green dragon, can you Mah Jongg to make the pair or do you have to hope to draw the second green dragon from the wall?
>Also:
>If you have 4 sets of three and in your concealed hand you have a pair and a 2 number chow, if any player discards the 3rd number for your chow, can you mah jongg picking up the tile to complete the chow or do you still have to follow the rule of picking up a chow only from the preceding player on your left?
>Thanks
>Cordelia Christopher
Your 2nd question is answered in FAQ 20 (above left).
Once you know the answer to your 2nd question, I think you'll know the answer to your 1st question too.
But if I'm wrong, you know where to ask.
So... do you have a book that you use as your Chinese Classical "bible"? If so, if you tell me which book it is (tell me author's name, that's usually more important than the title, which mostly all sound alike), I can show you which page your answer is on.
Tom
>Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 4:49 PM
>Subject: Re: When you mah jongg in Classical Chinese Rules, is it permissable...
>So I can pick up any tile, including a tile to complete a chow, to complete a Mah Jongg hand; so I can also pick up the green dragon, in question 1, as long as I mah jongg? Thanks-I thought that was true.
>Although I play Wright-Patterson I've taught people in myAsheville, NC little mountain neighborhood and here in Hilton Head Island where we can play outside. I found the rules on-line although I have an old Babcock book at home that I think I am mostly using except for the last step of scoring where you subtract your score from the winners. But I don't have a printer here in Hilton Head so at home I printed out a rule set-a one pager for simplicity for new players and it's by Paul E. Jaeger, Nov. 23, 2004.
>Thanks again for your wonderful web site. We are mostly retired in my groups and new people to the game really enjoy it-especially those who played years ago in a NMJL group. They feel so free of penalty-and the fact that you can collect scores without actually winning by Mah Jongg is really enjoyable, especially for beginners.
>Sincerely,
>Cordelia Christopher
You're welcome - you thought right! (^_^)
OK, well, that online page you found obviously sucks. Use a different one. And as much as we all owe Babcock for popularizing the game in America and Europe, his simplified rules (assuming you have the more common paperback pamphlet, not the hardcover book) don't go into enough details. Better you have a Foster or a Harr or a Millington.
Well, obviously that's no good either, at least not for when you need to know how things work.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper / トム·スローパー
/
湯姆 斯洛珀
/ 탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
March 5, 2008
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West. Available at bookstores, BN.com, and Amazon.com.
>On Monday, December 16, 2019, 08:35:33 PM PST, Heather H wrote:
>Chowing
>I have been playing mahjong for a few years and am still not sure about chowing from a discount from the person on my left.
>All the books say you can but is this just for ordinary mahjong and not for games like “windy chow”? We’ve had a few arguments about this and I’d like to have this clarified.
>Many thanks
>Heather.
I gather you play British/Australian rules. Most players and authors of that variant permit at most one exposed chow.
You may be reading some of the wrong books. I mean, you may be referring to books that do not describe your variant of mah-jongg. Use only books that actually describe the "Windy Chow" hand. See the list of authors of WESTERN style mah-jongg in FAQ 2B. You should only be using books by the authors listed there. Other variants have other rules.
Tom Sloper
Author of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
December 16, 2019
Los Angeles, California, USA
On Thursday, October 15, 2020, 04:42:20 PM PDT, Frances S wrote:
mah jong
Love your site, thank you.
If someone is doing a chow hand, say crazy chows, how often can they pick up a discarded tile from the left to complete a chow.?
I was told you could only do it once.
Thank you. Frances S I am in New Zealand.
After checking several books on Australian/British/Western rules, I found Crazy Chows in Thompson & Maloney's The Mah Jong Player's Companion. That hand specifically requires four "Mixed" chows (also known in other books as "knitted" chows) - not regular chows. There are several chow hands listed in that book - usually they require three chows, one in each suit. Those special hands are often Concealed hands (meaning you can't claim a discard except for mah-jongg).
Thompson & Maloney describe the "Ordinary Hand," which may include no more than one chow.
I haven't looked through all the special chow hands to see if any are exposable. If none are, then Ordinary Hand is the only time when you're allowed to expose a chow made from a discard.
I urge you to get yourself a good book. I recommend the Thompson & Maloney book I named, since your companions surely are using terminology from that book, and may be playing from that book. You should ask what books they use. More books on Western/British/Australian rules are listed in FAQ 3.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Author of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
October 15, 2020
Los Angeles, California, USA
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Wednesday, April 10, 2024 at 05:47:47 PM EDT, John and Valerie C wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is:
I play the Western game of Mahjong.
Can I pick up a chow as my first display of tiles? Or do I have to have a pung before a chow?
I believe in Chinese game, one must have a pung before a chow?
Thank you
Valerie
TS: I have never run across such a restriction in any of the definitive books on Western (British/Australian) mah-jongg: Strauser & Evans, Thompson & Maloney, Whitney, Carkner, Headley & Seeley, Robertson...
If you ask because somebody said something when you made a chow, you could ask them to show it to you in a rulebook. The Western restriction on chows is that in an "ordinary" hand (one not listed in the special hands), there can be no more than one chow. But there is no rule that an exposed pung is a prerequisite for making a chow.
TS: No. No such rule exists. Is this perhaps a misunderstanding of the priority of conflicting calls for a discard? If next-in-turn wants the tile for a chow but another player wants it for pung, kong, or mah-jongg, it goes to the other caller (not next-in-line). But there is no rule that an exposed pung is a prerequisite for making a chow.
Play safe out there. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
April 10, 2024
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind"
Donations appreciated
> From: Todd H
> Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 4:35 AM
> Subject: Hong Kong Mahjong: Chow for the Win
> Hello Tom,
> My question is about Hong Kong (Old Style) Mahjong and claiming a discard for a Chow.
> Now I understand quite clearly that the rules state that only the person seated to the right of the discarder may claim a discarded tile for a Chow. However, when looking at the precedence order (Pung/Kong claims take precedence over a Chow), one can see that a claim for a win/mahjong overrules all other claims. Does this mean that anyone (East, South, West, or North) may claim a discard if it's for the win, even if that discard creates mahjong by completing a Chow?
> I think the confusion may lie in the fact that I learned the American style of Mah Jongg first, which permits the claim of any tile for the win. See FAQ 20L (you can link to the FAQs above left).
> Thanks in advance for your response,
> Todd H
> Cambridge, New York
In ALL forms of mah-jongg, "mah-jongg overrules everything," and the player may claim the mah-jongg tile, no matter what part of the hand it completes. In some Asian forms, some sets (parts of the hand) might technically be considered "exposed" thereby, but that just affects the scoring of the hand -- winning on the discard is perfectly valid. I'm amending FAQ 20B to include this frequently asked question.
Tom Sloper
Creator of
the weekly Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
February 16, 2014
> From: Terence L.
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 3:29 PM
> Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
> My mah-jongg question or comment is:
> When a player is going for “seven sisters” or seven pairs, can that person take a discarded tile from the player before them if they can pair it with something in their hand? Some of us think you must pull all of your own pairs to get seven sisters while others think it is okay to pick the discarded tile from the payer before you. If you can clarify this it would be greatly appreciated.
> Thank you, Terence L
I guess I didn't include this in FAQ 20. You can take a discard only for the following:
To complete a pung (you must expose it);
To turn a concealed pung into a kong (you must expose it);
To complete a chow (only on your turn, from the player at your left, and you must expose the chow);
To make mah-jongg (you must expose the entire hand).
You may never take a discard to make a pair, unless that pair completes your hand (in which case you're doing #4 above). Your group needs to have a book to which you can turn when rules questions arise. I can't tell for certain which mah-jongg variant you play, but I believe Amy Lo's book might work for you. See FAQ 3 for the complete title.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Creator of
the weekly Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
February 24, 2014
From: "Richard W Emrich"
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 2:07 PM
Subject: Mah-Jongg Q A
> My mah-jongg question or comment is:
> At our weekly Japanese MJ game, one player went Ron with 7 pairs (we were
> taught to call it Niko-Niko). With his 7 pairs, he had 2x1 crack, 2x2
> crack & 2x3 crack. (2 identical chows or Iipeikou) Can he claim a Fan for
> Iipeikou as well as 2 Fan for the 7 pair ?
> I have not had much exposure to the 'correct' terms of Mah-jongg so I hope
> this is OK
> Thanks
> Richard W. Emrich
> Chino Hills, CA
Let me draw you a picture to show you why the answer is no.
The answer is no. Those 6 tiles are either 2 chows OR 3 pairs - they cannot be both at the same time. And as you can see by the illustration above, the 2 chows option is not a valid option. They can only be 3 pairs in this case.
I think I'll tack this onto FAQ 20.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper / トム·スローパー
/
湯姆 斯洛珀 /
탐 슬로퍼
Los Angeles, CA (USA)
January 25, 2008
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on mah-jongg East & West.
Available at bookstores, BN.com, and Amazon.com.
>From: Dhirajlal M
>Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 2:57 PM
>Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
>My mah-jongg question is about:
>Sheet 25: Special hands 4 “Fourfold Plenty”. What are the reasons for 4 Kongs and a pair to complete the hand, requiring 18 tiles. All other combination is 14 tiles to end the round. Will appreciate your explanation.
>Regards,
>George
I don't know what "Sheet 25" is, and I can't give you a reason for the hand, but I can explain how it's possible to have four kongs in a mahjong hand. As I wrote in FAQ 20 (D), a kong (four of a kind) is a special-case pung, in all forms of mah-jongg except American. Clearly, you aren't playing American mah-jongg. When you make a kong in your mahjong rules, you have to take a replacement tile from the back end of the wall. Yes, if you count the kong as four tiles, your total goes over 14. Just count a kong as three tiles. So if you have four kongs, that's physically 16 tiles - but count it as four pungs ("special" pungs), so four kongs would be regarded as twelve tiles. See FAQ 20 (D). FAQ 20 answers the most frequently asked questions about Asian and other (non-American) forms of mah-jongg.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
October 9, 2018
On Friday, July 5, 2024 at 06:50:48 PM EDT, Stan H wrote:
Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
My mah-jongg question or comment is: if a player pong ( make triplet) then reveal a Kong (quads) in same turn before discarding, is that player allowed to draw extra card from wall?
Sent from my iPhone
On Friday, July 5, 2024 at 06:53:35 PM EDT, Stan H wrote:
Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
My mah-jongg question or comment is: is a player allowed to pong and reveal Kong in same turn; and receive extra card from wall
Sent from my iPhone
On Friday, July 5, 2024 at 07:03:42 PM EDT, Stan H wrote:
Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
My mah-jongg question or comment is: can inside quads be revealed anytime even if out of turn?
Sent from my iPhone
As explained in FAQ 20d, you can meld (lay down) an entirely concealed kong and then take a replacement tile. The only reason to meld a Concealed Kong is to get the replacement tile (because without doing so, the tile count of the hand is messed up and you can't declare mah-jongg).
The only time you can meld a Concealed Kong is during your turn. There are two ways to start your turn: by picking from the wall or by calling a discarded tile. So, yes, you can claim a discard for pung and then meld a Concealed Kong and take a replacement tile before discarding (all in the same turn). Just curious: do you know which variant you play? Chinese Official? Hong Kong? Japanese riichi? British/Australian? Wright-Patterson? (There are many more.)
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 5, 2024
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind"
Donations appreciated
On Friday, July 5, 2024 at 08:20:30 PM EDT, Stan H wrote:
Subject: Mah-Jongg Q+A
My mah-jong question or comment is: clarification of previous question—can you pong to make a set of “three rounds” and in the same turn place a fourth “2 rounds” to a set of 2 rounds from an earlier pong to then draw extra tile from wall?
Sent from my iPhone
1. You start your turn by calling a discard to expose a pung.
2. Now you want to promote another exposed pung to a kong. Let's see FAQ 20d again:
"When you have an exposed pung and you pick the fourth tile from the wall, you have the option of promoting your exposed pung to an exposed kong." But that's not what you're doing (you haven't picked; you called a discard). What must have happened is that you either had that fourth tile already in your hand and only exposed a pung at first, or you obtained that fourth tile after making the pung but didn't add it to the exposure at that time.
I had to check A. D. Millington's definitive work, "The Complete Book of Mah-Jongg." His book documents the classical Chinese rules from which other variants have descended. So this rule,
Rule 51 on page 38, probably also applies in your variant (I'd still love to know which variant you play).
The answer to your question is:
No, you are not allowed to promote a pung after first exposing a pung. You will have to wait and do it after beginning your turn by picking from the wall. That is permitted. I suppose I should modify FAQ 20d!
Tom Sloper
Rochester, New York, USA
July 5, 2024
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind"
Donations appreciated
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Saturday, April 9, 2022, 04:38:42 PM EDT, Stanley S wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is:
The version I am referring to is Chinese (British rules)
My question is about kongs.
Can a winning hand consist of 1,2,3 or 4 kongs, with the rest pungs or chows (and of course a pair)
Clearly, 4 kongs and a pair consists of 18 tiles,
But aren’t hands restricted to 13 titles?
Or is it that a (4 tile) kong is only counted as 3 tiles.
The other alternative it would seem is that you can win with either 3 Kongs or 4 pungs/chows.
Yes. But as for chows, most British players permit no more than one chow in an ordinary hand.
Yes, well, when you glorify a pung to a kong, you have to take a replacement tile from the back end of the wall, because now you've messed up the tile count in your hand. You really have 15 but you can just think of it as 14. A kong is equivalent to a pung, for tile count purposes.
Fourteen, actually. Every time it's your turn you bring a 14th tile into the hand. There's no way to win with only 13 tiles, so you can only win when you're holding 14.
It's probably best if you regard them that way. This is all explained in FAQ 20-D.
Yeah, well, kongs do mess that idea up. What book do you use? I recommend Thompson & Maloney's The Game of Mah Jong Illustrated, or Mah Jong, Anyone? by Strauser & Evans & me
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Author of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs
Donations appreciated
Saturday, April 9, 2022, 5:15 pm Eastern
Rochester, New York, USA
On Sunday, April 12, 2020, 04:28:15 AM PDT, Susan H wrote:
Kong in mahjong
Hi Tom,
Greetings from Australia where my husband and I are spending some of our covid-19 lock down time learning mahjong.
My question concerns the situation where a hand includes a kong. Are you able to call mahjong with just 13 tiles then? Or do you have to have 2 pairs as well as the kong - i.e. 14 tiles?
I have read your FAQ on the topic but, sadly, didn’t understand it.
Many thanks,
Susan
You wrote:
No! If your hand includes one kong, then you have to have fifteen tiles. When you expose a kong, you need to take an extra tile from the back end of the wall.
You lost me there. I'm just gonna say "no."
Since you didn't specify which FAQ, or cite any words from it, I need to double-check that you read FAQ 20, answer D:
Clearly, you aren't playing American mah-jongg. When you make a kong in your mahjong rules, you have to take a replacement tile from the back end of the wall. Yes, if you count the kong as four tiles, your total goes over 14. Just count a kong as three tiles. So if you have four kongs, that's physically 16 tiles - but count it as four pungs ("special" pungs), so four kongs would be regarded as twelve tiles.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Author of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Easter Sunday, 2020
Los Angeles, California, USA
On Saturday, August 1, 2020, 06:42:38 AM PDT, Lisa H wrote:
Mah-Jongg Q+A
My mah-jongg question or comment is:
We are playing Chinese mahjong. If a player has an exposed pong, and another player has a discard that would give that player a kong, what happens to the tile? Does the player who is discarding it, simply discard it because it has no value to the player with the pong. Or does the player with the pong pick it up because it will make their pong a kong for more points? Or does the player who has the discard put it to the side to prohibit letting the player who has the pong make a kong for more points?
New to the game, and we weren’t sure how to handle this situation.
You're asking about promoting an exposed pung to an exposed kong. I checked FAQ 20 just now and found that I have never detailed the ways kongs may be formed there. I found lots of comments (Q&A emails like this one) containing questions about kongs, but to my surprise this one hadn't come up before. I'll fix that today, prompted by your question.
A player's exposed pung may be promoted to a kong only if the player picks the fourth tile from the wall. (The player may not take a discard for the purpose.) It's rule 50 on page 136 of my book. I don't know which Chinese variant you are playing, so this is not necessarily a recommendation to get my book (the book describes Chinese Majiang Competition Rules). If you tell me which book you are using as your guide, I can either help you find this info in your book, or recommend a better book. If you are not learning from a book but a website, I'd love to know which one. If you don't know which variant you play, FAQ 2B can help you. Knowing which variant you play is important, because that knowledge helps eliminate confusion when encountering different rules and scoring systems.
Play safely and stay healthy. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Author of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
August 1, 2020
Los Angeles, California, USA
>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 13:43:13 -0700 (PDT)
>From: "J. Yuen - iteachmahjong
>Subject: Chinese MJ Question
>Tom - In Chinese version MJ, how does a player play a concealed (hidden) Kong combination? Are they required to reveal it on the table or do they tell the other players they have it but keep it concealed?
I guess I should add this to FAQ 20. When you have a concealed triplet in the hand, and you pick the fourth tile, you are permitted to declare a "concealed kong." You certainly have to MELD it, not just tell the others. They have to see why you've got the right to have an extra tile in the hand. But the way most Chinese variants do it, the meld is face-down. [Edit, 12/6/2018 - Some variants mark the kong with one or two face-up tiles.]
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
September 29, 2010
On Saturday, August 7, 2021, 04:48:08 PM PDT, Glennis N wrote:
Mah-Jongg Q+A
I’m in Australia and play western mahjong. My question is When you have a concealed Kong and then you show an exposed pung that you have picked it up from a discarded tile. Do you then have to expose your concealed Kong .?
Thanking you
Glennis
Sent from my iPad
As I read this:
1. There are four identical tiles concealed within your hand. And at least one pair seeking to form a threesome. And some extra tiles.
2. Someone throws a tile matching your pair.
3. You say "pung!" and expose the newly formed pung with the discard.
So now, you ask, do you have to "expose" your concealed kong. I use the word "meld" for this, because "exposed concealed kong" sounds oxymoronic.
No, you don't have to meld your concealed kong at this particular time. You can do it anytime it's your turn. But you don't want to hold it in the hand too long. You can get to a situation where your hand is all completed sets, but you need two tiles to win. Meld the kong, take the replacement tile from the back end of the wall, before your sets all fill out.
Play safely and stay healthy. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Author of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs
Donations appreciated
August 7, 2021
Los Angeles, California, USA
On Saturday, August 7, 2021, 07:06:02 PM PDT, Glennis N wrote:
Re: Mah-Jongg Q+A
Apologies my last question wasn’t very clear.
If I have a concealed meld Kong and then I go onto picking up a pong from a discarded tile, do I then have to show my concealed meld kong?
Glennis
Sent from my iPad
If you're asking when you have to turn over your four face-down tiles, the answer is: when you declare mah-jongg. If your new pung completes your hand and it's mah-jongg, that's when you have to flip the concealed kong.
If somebody else wins and people are curious about your concealed kong, you can show them at that time.
Play safely and stay healthy. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Author of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs
Donations appreciated
August 7, 2021
Los Angeles, California, USA
>From: J. Yuen W
>Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 8:00 AM
>Subject: Penalty for False MJ Claim
>Tom - our group plays the Chinese version MJ purely socially. I've reviewed your FAQs and Q & A boards seeking an answer without finding it. Please help. When a player calls a false mahjong hand what is the appropriate penalty? Does that player fold up their tiles and is eliminated from further playing that hand or does that player continue actively playing their hand but, can not win that hand? Again, thank you for your help.
>Jon
It's the latter. Taking a player out of the game (calling the player "dead" as is done in American mah-jongg) is not done in any Chinese variant I've seen. Depending on which variant you play (and whether or not your players use points - you said you play "purely socially," which I take to mean "no money"), there may also be a points penalty.
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of
the weekly Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
December 17, 2014
>From: Zoe G
>Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 11:43 PM
>Subject: Chinese Maj question
>When a player has the wrong number of tiles...say 12,14 or 15, I understand that player keeps playing. Do they somehow correct the number of tiles in their hand or do they keep playing with the incorrect number of tiles in their hand?
>Thanks Tom,
>Zoe G
>From: Zoe G
>Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 11:47 PM
>Subject: Chinese Maj question #2
>When a player has a false “hu” does the player keep the 14th, say that person doesn’t have 8 points, or just doesn’t have Maj Jong. Do they need to discard that that 14th tile? And after that what happens?
>Thanks Tom,
>Zoe G
The player's hand is "dead." He or she picks and discards in turn, but is not allowed to claim any discard for any reason, and will not be permitted to win.
The player is required to discard a tile.
The player is free to discard any tile he or she sees fit.
I don't know. [They game continues that way, provided there are tiles in the wall.] Either one of the other 3 players wins, or nobody wins.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
Vernal Equinox, 2018
>On Saturday, December 14, 2019, 02:26:59 PM PST, l thorne wrote:
>My mah-jongg question or comment is:
>Hi,
>With regard to a Wrong tile count in Hong Kong style "A player with more than 13 or fewer than 13 tiles forfeits the right to win the current hand. The number of tiles remains uncorrected", does the player with the incorrect amount of tiles continue to play their hand normally and just not mah-jongg? I cannot find any information on this.
>Thanks so much
>LThorne
Tom Sloper
Author of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
December 14, 2019
Los Angeles, California, USA
>From: Lynn P
>Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 2:52 PM
>Subject: Knitted straight
>Hi Tom, another question from your Bishop fans.
>We play Chinese Mahjong.
>Can one chow a 147 or 258 or 369 during play or must one keep these concealed until they mahjong? (Of course we realize the 147, 258 and 369 must be in three different suits)
>Also, the example for knitted straights on page 183 does not show a knitted straight hand.
>Thanks as always. We will donate. Lynn
You know, I guess I never said in my book that knitted sets are not exposable. Guess I need to say so somewhere.
Knitted sets are not exposable. I said so in rule 40.c. on page 134 of my book.
And I'll add this to FAQ 20. You don't have to donate.
As for the illustration on page 183, when I was looking into your question, I looked at that and got momentarily confused until I realized I was looking at the illustration that was above its description, rather than the reverse. I had an epiphany: I should have bunched the descriptions closer together with their illustrations, or put dividing lines in.
The description of fan #35, Knitted Straight, on page 151 says Knitted Straight has knitted sets, 147 258 and 369, just as you said. On page 183 the illustration beneath the description of fan #35 shows the knitted sets arranged into a knitted straight (rather than showing them bunched by suit).
May the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
トム·スローパー
湯姆 斯洛珀
Creator of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs -- donations appreciated.
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Los Angeles, California, USA
May 10, 2018 4:20 PM
Mah-Jongg Q+A
On Saturday, January 8, 2022, 09:53:30 PM EST, Bob W wrote:
My mah-jongg question or comment is: in the opening of Chinese mah jong, if a player has two flowers in his initial drawn hand and then proceeds to pick two cards from the dead or kong wall(one of which is flower) , does he immediately draw another card from dead or kong wall, or does he wait till other players after him draw their replacement cards for having also drawn flowers.
Thanks,
Bob W
Play safely and stay healthy. And
may the tiles be with you.
Tom Sloper
Author of "The Red Dragon & The West Wind," the definitive book on Mah-Jongg East & West.
Author of the
Sloper On Mah-Jongg column and
the Mah-Jongg FAQs
Donations appreciated
January 9, 2022
Rochester, New York, USA
An easy-to-read intro for beginners and an excellent reference
for expert players, The Red Dragon & The West Wind is a complete
guide to official Chinese and American mah-jongg. Look for it on Amazon or Barnes & Noble. Available in print or electronic editions. You'll also want to download the errata for latest updated info.